120 and 220?

eblc1388 said:

If Nigel you have ever jointed wires before, tell us that you have never twisted two wires together and apply PVC tape but always use the "proper brass connectors" method instead.

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Not in this century! :lol:

And NEVER for mains installation wiring, which is what the thread is about.

Do you remember the fabric based insulating tape? - horrible stuff, used to be popular before PVC.

Nigel Goodwin said:

Yes, you need to conform to regulations, to a certain extent! - any new work most comply, but there's no regulation requiring old installations to be upgraded to new regulations.

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The only reason I can think of old installations not being upgraded is such act would create too much hardship for the owners. Not that the regulation should not be conform to the full.

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The obvious reason is cost, it's an expensive job to rip out and replace all the wiring, although it's got the obvious advantages of adding extra sockets when you do it. A lot of the houses with old wiring are lived in by very old people, who can't afford (and don't have) the money.

One thing I have noticed about the American DIY programs, apparently (depending on the state?) you have to fit mains sockets every so many feet? - I don't know if such a regulation exists in the UK?, but I've never heard of it? - good idea though!.

Nigel Goodwin said:

No, at least in the UK, you are perfectly free to do your own maintenance.

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Not any more! As of january this year (2005 for any one who reads this in 2045), any electrical work done in the home needs to be done by a certified engineer and a certificate issued. It is not against the law the do the wireing in your own home, but it is illegal to try to sell your home if any electical work was not performed by a certified engineer. The new laws are petty at the best, but alas, I will spare the potitical side.

Nigel Goodwin said:

And NEVER for mains installation wiring, which is what the thread is about.

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Oh, I thought we are talking about those Ads we saw on TVs.

If someone is doing my installation wiring, I would not accept even a "brass connection with insulator" and demanded a whole length of fully insulated cable instead.

Nigel Goodwin said:

Do you remember the fabric based insulating tape? - horrible stuff, used to be popular before PVC.

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To your surprise they are still being use a lot to cover the sharp edges of high voltage electrical joints before applying PVC insulation tapes to cover the whole joint.

Nigel Goodwin said:

The obvious reason is cost, it's an expensive job to rip out and replace all the wiring, although it's got the obvious advantages of adding extra sockets when you do it. A lot of the houses with old wiring are lived in by very old people, who can't afford (and don't have) the money.

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Isn't the word "hardship" means approximately the same thing?

Nigel Goodwin said:

One thing I have noticed about the American DIY programs, apparently (depending on the state?) you have to fit mains sockets every so many feet? - I don't know if such a regulation exists in the UK?, but I've never heard of it? - good idea though!.

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That's would be classified as good wiring practices but I'm not sure the regulation would make fitting them mandatory.

eblc1388 said:

If someone is doing my installation wiring, I would not accept even a "brass connection with insulator" and demanded a whole length of fully insulated cable instead.

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I'm not talking about simply extending a piece of cable, but how ALL the connections are made in a house - in light fittings, junction boxes for two way switching - anything which needs a connection.

However, there certainly are occasions when you might want to extend a piece of cable - for example to move a switch or socket, when replacing the entire cable would involve ripping loads of plaster off. But for a new installation, there shouldn't be any reason.

Mind you!, it doesn't stop the Electricity Board people doing so in the road!. Near where I work we keep getting repeated failures in an underground cable - it must now have joins every couple of feet for 5 or 6 yards!.

Nigel Goodwin said:

Mind you!, it doesn't stop the Electricity Board people doing so in the road!. Near where I work we keep getting repeated failures in an underground cable - it must now have joins every couple of feet for 5 or 6 yards!.

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In many countries, wiring regulations and codes specifically do not apply to power generating company. Inside a power plant, many live conductors are exposed.

Nigel Goodwin said:

One thing I have noticed about the American DIY programs, apparently (depending on the state?) you have to fit mains sockets every so many feet? - I don't know if such a regulation exists in the UK?, but I've never heard of it? - good idea though!.

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That's would be classified as good wiring practices but I'm not sure the regulation would make fitting them mandatory.[/quote]

I think the code on this item applies to new construction, and it is SAFETY related more than convenience related.
Reasoning: Majority of home fires can be traced back to overloaded extension cords. I think the code is (don't quote me on the exact fugures) that an outlet should be placed so that the max distance between any 2 adjacent outlets is 12 feet or less. If you look at appliance cords, most are around 5-6 feet in length. Using this logic, placement of the appliance should result in the appliance cord reaching an outlet without the need to use an extension cord. And it is darn handy to boot. This item is one of those that is good safety practice and makes a heck of a lot of sense also.

On a side note, I cannot understand the resistance to using the twist on wire connectors. I have seen circuits 20-25 years old that are in perfect condition using these devices. The main thing is the quality of the device used. The hard plastic ones (bakelite exterior) ARE prone to breaking, but most likely if someone uses an improper tool to install it (ie. pliers). The best are the soft plastic exterior with a locking helical spring interior (Scotch Locks).

This is one of those times when the old saying of "You get what you pay for" or "Penny wise, Pound foolish (imported saying from across the big pond)" applies.

Dialtone

Dialtone said:

I think the code on this item applies to new construction, and it is SAFETY related more than convenience related.

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Yes of course, you can't very easily force everyone to upgrade existing installations.

Reasoning: Majority of home fires can be traced back to overloaded extension cords. I think the code is (don't quote me on the exact fugures) that an outlet should be placed so that the max distance between any 2 adjacent outlets is 12 feet or less. If you look at appliance cords, most are around 5-6 feet in length. Using this logic, placement of the appliance should result in the appliance cord reaching an outlet without the need to use an extension cord. And it is darn handy to boot. This item is one of those that is good safety practice and makes a heck of a lot of sense also.

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In the UK there's a restriction on how close you may have sockets connected on different phases (where you can get 440V between phases). The standard length of UK mains leads is designed so you can't handle an appliance from each phase at the same time - obviously extension leads soon mess that idea up though!. However, domestic premises wouldn't normally have more than one phase available.

On a side note, I cannot understand the resistance to using the twist on wire connectors. I have seen circuits 20-25 years old that are in perfect condition using these devices. The main thing is the quality of the device used. The hard plastic ones (bakelite exterior) ARE prone to breaking, but most likely if someone uses an improper tool to install it (ie. pliers). The best are the soft plastic exterior with a locking helical spring interior (Scotch Locks).

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It's perhaps a thing with our higher mains voltage?, but they have been banned from use in the UK for 40 odd years?.

I've only ever fitted TWO - they were in a Heathkit FM Tuner kit I assembled for someone a long time ago - beautiful things Heathkits :lol:

Nigel Goodwin said:

eblc1388 said:

...I would not accept even a "brass connection with insulator"...

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... it doesn't stop the Electricity Board people doing so in the road!. Near where I work we keep getting repeated failures in an underground cable - it must now have joins every couple of feet for 5 or 6 yards!.

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I hope your local electricity distributor isn't using brass screw-terminals and insulating tape :wink: they will be using a system similar to "ScotchCast" joints - these end up just as good as (or better than) the cable they are jointing.

eblc1388 said:

In many countries, wiring regulations and codes specifically do not apply to power generating company. Inside a power plant, many live conductors are exposed.

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The UK rule book is called the "IEE Wiring Regulations", we are on the 16th edition at the minute. I remember decades ago they never applied in our Power Stations, the CEGB had their own standards but now with "de-regulation" (thanks for nothing, Thatcher!) the 'Regs' apply to all UK power wiring - it just gets very vague at 132kV or 6000A.
The only bare live conductors are those out of reach -the swithcing compound (like a private substation) - these conductors are high above head-height on insulated supports, they take the cables going out onto the pylons (400kV).

mechie said:

I hope your local electricity distributor isn't using brass screw-terminals and insulating tape :wink: they will be using a system similar to "ScotchCast" joints - these end up just as good as (or better than) the cable they are jointing.

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I don't know what it's called, but they incapsulate it in some kind of epoxy, because they leave the boxes behind it comes in - about the size of a large lunch box.