2V & 60A reqd from car?

PhillDubya said:

LOL!!!! Now that would suck. Maybe that is where all the failed overunity trolls end up? Dildo factories?

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The research could be fun though.

Mike.

PhillDubya said:

LOL!!!! Now that would suck. Maybe that is where all the failed overunity trolls end up? Dildo factories?

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Hahaha I don't know, I was just looking for a polite way to offend Elliven (the Tesla thing was a kick to my lunchbox).

Pommie said:

The research could be fun though.

Mike.

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Now that you quote that, dildo industry is great! Some years ago I've made a small ... ehem... "toy", for my girlfriend*, using a pager vibrating motor, an AAA cell and the case of a marker.

RESULTS:

- My girlfriend* looked seriously to it, and didn't found anything funny / interesting about it
- 2 girlfriends* looked at it, and blushed
- One took it in ehr hands, and started to laugh nerviously
- One tried to steal it

As you can see with my small scale experiment, is a very, very great industry!

________________________________

* Little offtopic english question: Please, hoy do you difference between the girl who you love and spend time with, and the girls that you meet (i.e. at work) and are just your friends?

Girlfriend - Girlfriend??

--

Back when car batteries had tar tops, I got 6v from a 12v battery by putting a self tapping screw into the busbar between two of the 2.16v cells.

A scrap computer motherboard might be a good starting place. The processors take up to 200W at about 1.5 V or so. There are often synchronised buck regulators to do that, on the motherboard, close to the processor.

You would have to check the voltage rating of the power switches. If the power supply is designed for a much smaller input voltage, the current in the inductors may rise too fast for the regulator to react to.

(Not that I think there is any future in running car engines on HHO. Here in the UK, the annual road tax on cars depends on the CO2 emission per km. The car makers will do anything they can to get those numbers down. If HHO worked, I am sure they would use it.)

PhillDubya said:

If you know this, then why even bother?


Tesla obeyed, and most importantly UNDERSTOOD basic thermodynamics. What is your point?

Are you trying to make a roughly 24% efficient engine, more efficient? Say like 30%, 32% or more? Is that what you are after?

I really have a hard time understanding what some of you guys are after...

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I reckon some of you guys should back off a bit. Whats wrong with exploring ways of improving efficiency. It is acknowledged that an internal combustion engine is hugely inefficient so it stands to reason that there is potential for improvement. Ever heard of a triple expansion steam engine , well guess what it was before that ?

To get 2 volts out of your car system is simple.
You will have to rewind a battery charger transformer. Three of them actualy, your alternator is three phase before it goes to the rectifers.
Count how many windings there are on the primary when you take it apart. divide line volts by the number of turns. That gives you your turns per volt ratio at your line frequency. if you have a 12 pole alternator running at 2000 rpm idle. (Alterantors are usualy 3 or 4 to one over engine RPM from the factory.)
you have 6 full cycles per revoution and 2000 revolitions per minute. 6 * 2000 or 12000 cycles per minute or about 200 per second. Divide your actual alternator hz by your line hz the transformer ran at. 200/60 = 3 .333
You now have a turns ratio divider for your new lower voltage higher frequency primary
If the old ratio was at 33 turns per volt your new one would be 10 per volt.
If your VA rating was 360va (A common 12v 30 amp Charger is around this) that can be multiplied by your ratio. So now that transformer can run at 360 * 3.3 = 2000 VA theoreticaly. (If the iron core is good not poor quality transformer steel. Good 60 hz transformer steel can run at near 1Khz before it looses its head!)
Factor in your alternator can put out say 60 amps so divide that by 3. (Each transformer is running one phase) Your primary conductor should be able to handle at least 20 amps. Two #14 awg will run 30-40 amps all day with no problem. one #14 might still take it though.
Calculate your secondary windings and the amount of amps they will have to carry.
20 * 6 = 120 (12 volt AC step down to 2 Vac)
7 or 8 #14 in parallel.
get a big enough rectifier set and you should be able to get around 360 amps at 2 volts from a car alternator and still have the standard 12 volt sytem intact and be able to take it off and move it from alternator to alternator as they burn up.
*An actual 12 volt car system runs at closer to 14.4 volts when its working properly. That gives you automatic voltage compensation for rectifier volt drop and line losses.*

Also giving the increase in VA capacity you might as well over wind the whole thing.
When your 2 volt 360 amp source does not cut it try a 120 amp alternator, 720 amps at 2 volts. Or get one of the leese neville industrial units. I have seen one that was rated at 48v 450 amps! (Mine Overburden haul truck) That would give you 10800 amps at 2 volts!

It may still not make enough hydrogen at that level yet but you will be able to spot weld 3/8" plates together!

Getting 2 volts out of your car system is simple... Followed by four paragraphs of text which don't effectively explain anything.. I really miss these forums =)

hahaha true.
Yea I know it ran out a ways.
But its not like I am the first one to ever post a long run out that does not really do much!
Maybe some of you are being a bad infulence on me!

But if you tell someone to just give up and quit they get pissy. If you give them something think about long enough they will quit on there own!
Human nature 101

I understood it - you tap into the alternator ahead of the diodes and hook up three step-down transformers and rectify the outputs of those.

Not real simple, but hydrogenutters might like it.

Thats the whole point.
Someone may have just learned how to get different voltages off common alternators without rewinds or vehical electrical sytem modifications.
A little tinkering and its plug in and go!
Next time someone wants 120/240 volts off an alternator maybe this info will be usefull to them too!

PS: hydrogen guys, Ever think of putting the HOH cells in series so you dont have to run 2 volts at high amps? Hydrogen and oxygen gas mixed still dont conduct electricity at STP!

Elliven said:

**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**
https://www.calphysics.org/Patent7379286.pdf
YouTube - A New Energy Source - Blacklight Power

Am I stupid enough to think that any energy conversion process is more than 100% efficient?
No: There has to be another explination.
Am I stupid enough to think that everything has already been invented and that there is no other explination?
No: Ignorence is not an excuse its a choice.

Any one here done a study on Tesla?
It wont be anyone who has replied so far.

Ignorence is bliss; enjoy your security!
I would rather be wrong and laughed at.

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Well those are good words of wisdom but applied to the wrong thing as you come very late. This subject has been bashed to bits over and over and tried and trested no end. So you not "boldly going where no man has gone before" your going into very well known to be trouble, thats your choice just don't expect others to pat you on the back for the guts alone because you also need reasoning, just read around the board and you will find this topic discussed many times and dave yourself the embaressment.

audioguru said:

He is adding HHO to a gasoline engine to fool the ECM into making the mixture too lean so the engine burns its valves and pistons. Then less gasoline is burned.
But the nitrogen pollutant will be way too high.

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Adding HHO has totally the opposite effect, does not lean out when HHO is added but enriches mixture as "not enough" burn gasses are seen at the O2 sensor.....

Partial quote from this site.
Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

Update: I've now asked over 100 HHO scammers to perform these tests and report their observations. Not one has done so. That's because the vast majority of those claiming it works don't even have a system in their vehicles, they're only in this scam for the money they earn from it.
And another worrying aspect of these HHO conversions has been brought to my attention...
All of those who are *actually* seeing a small improvement in fuel efficiency after fitting one of these kits have one thing in common.. they've messed around with the O2 sensor in their engine. The rationale here is that the extra oxygen from the electrolysis is causing the O2 sensor to return a reading that will cause the engine computer to increase the amount of gasoline injected -- so the O2 sensor should be disabled or adjusted to compensate.
This is utter rubbish. The O2 coming from the electrolysis cell will be totally consumed when it oxidizes the hydrogen during combustion.
What happens when you fool with the O2 sensor is that you trick your engine computer into forcing your engine to run lean -- far leaner than it's designed to run -- and that's bad.
Yes, you *may* save a few dollars per tank in fuel costs but you'll pay dearly for it a little further down the track in the form of burnt valves and damaged piston-crowns.
When you allow your engine to run lean, the internal operating temperatures soar, as does the exhaust gas temperature. This has a huge effect on the life of the valves and valve-seats, as well as promoting pre-ignition and the damaging effects that can produce.
And if you are someone who's done this and claim extra mileage, try disconnecting your HHO system without further touching the O2 sensor. Guess what, your fuel efficiency will *increase* even further! The HHO system has *nothing* to do with the fuel-economy you're seeing, it's simply the over-lean setting you've fooled your engine's computer into delivering.

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Blueroom: YES YES YES ! We all know that ! Come with something a lot more original please ! You can lean out your O2 sensor equiped ECU quite a bit WITHOUT engine damage. Just don't OVERDO it ! Since my young days, we (friends and I) have leaned out our Webber (tm) equiped cars when Webber carburettors were the real fashion statement. Undersized fuel jets, oversized air jets etc. You have to watch the EGT, if your exhaust changed to a rusty colour it was TOO lean.... so you see we know all this, a loooonnnngggg time ago !!! The modern ECU's operate on a 14:1 air to fuel ratio. That is a very CONVENIENT mid point for the designers. You can go to a higher ratio, as much as 16.5:1, just watch your EGT !

mang9723 said:

You can lean out your O2 sensor equiped ECU quite a bit WITHOUT engine damage.

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Because you're so much smarter than all those pointy-headed engineers at the big auto companies, right?

Don't you know it's all a big oil coverup.

How do you measure engine damage, over the short term or over the 10+ year life of the engine? Cause the engineers set that fuel mixture point for a nice long life. I will bet you every single last penny I have or will ever make in my entire life that you significantly reduced the life of that engine. Leaning out your engine beyond factory specs by more than a very small amount will increase overall heating which shortens engine/oil and general component life significantly in the long run.

Elliven said:

I would like to a car's electrical system, as input, to get an output of between 1.4 & 2 Volts and around 60 Amps.

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A single lead acid cell puts out 2.16v but you'd have to drill a hole in the top of the battery to tap into the cross-strap. This is how I got 6v for a tape recorder for in-car use.

If you want better fuel milage the correct way is to increase the fuel not decrease it!
a 12.9:1 air fuel ratio will give you better millage not worse!
The added fuel has a burn quenching effect. This allows for more ignition advance to be used. The combination of the two makes the total burn more smooth and efficient. Thus the throttle is actualy closed further while getting the same power out of the engine. Being less total air is being drawn in less fuel is needed.

Talk to your local old timer speed guys or your local drag strip or auto racer guys about it, they will tell you the truth!

I have worked with carburated engines all of my life and I know for a fact that it works this way! When you want more power and less fuel, using a richer ratio makes it better. The guys that showed me this worked for most of their lives as auto dealership mechanics.
Everyone of them has said that back when the auto industry started going for emmisions ratings the first thing the customers complained about was the piss poor milage they got. They all said that they could not do anything about it until the warranty was over. When the factory warranty was over the first thing the would tell the customer is to bring in their car for the "adjustment" cure for the bad milage.
The cure was to rejet the emissions rated carburators to a richer setting! Not leaner! They also said that this also curred the valve wear and burning problems too!

However you will never pass an emissions test though!

Another secret millage booster that does honestly work is cetane boost.
its made as a diesel fuel supplement and stablizer and has the same effect as a octane booster on a gasoline engine. Its common knowledge around my circle that it does in fact give a honest 5 - 15% millage increase. I have used it for many years and have I have watched my average milage enough to know it does in fact work.
About 2 -3 cups per 20 gallons is all thats needed. Any more than that does not have any drastic effect on milage improvement.
(But it will make your exaust smell awfull if you get it to rich!)

And it does not hurt your sensors!

I had given up on this post, but there seem to be some open minded people that have posted constructive advice here.
Thx guys.

Fundi in SA means expert.

Cells in series have been tried and are being used.
They are impractical however as the electrolyte for each cell has to be electrically insulated, which makes filling etc. difficult.

The idea of putting a transformer on each of phases of an alternator did occure to me. As did re-winding an alternator.
I was hoping for a more ... plug and play solution however.

Tesla was a genius. His understanding of electricity far surpassed that of anyone. His ideas were suppressed when he wanted to transmit electricity wirelesly. How do you cut of someone who is not paying? Assuming you can meter his usage in the 1st place?
There is some rumour of scalar waves.
I am getting out of my depth here but think this has to do with the fact that the free electrons in a conductor are .... compressible?


Now lets talk some more on why I think that adding H & O to an engine may work despite the obvious efficiency losses of the engine, alternator, and cell:

Hydrogen burns much faster than fuel in air. This means that one should be able to get the mixture to burn at a time when more of the heat goes into turning the crank.

The cylinder wall of an engine is at around 200 C which is too cold for the air fuel mixture to burn. So the combustion flame is quenched at a certain distance from the wall. This distance is generally just under 2 mm.
The quench distance of hydrogen is in the region of 0.5 mm.
This means that there is quite a large volume of mixture, burned with the aid of hydrogen, that is normally wasted.

Another scource of unburned fuel is impropper mixing of fuel, with air, in the chamber. Hydrogen burns in ratios from 4% to 90 something % with air.
Therefore more of the fuel that is not mixed in the propper ratio with air will be burned.

Exhaust gas is in the region of 600 C.
The electrical energy needed to split water decreases with temperature. If you can figure out a way to use some of that waste heat to help with the reaction.....

A more difficult approach would be to use electricity produced during over-run to produce hydrogen and then store it.

So yes: I am hoping to increase the efficiency of an internal combustion engine, but will probably not accomplish my goal.
Then again; flight was considered impossible just 106 years ago...