AC Motor controller to shift frequency from 50Hz to 60Hz

[Gatriel]

Hey All,

I am in Germany and will be importing an entire kitchen from the USA to Germany. I have a few questions for you high-voltage guys and would love to pick your brains.

For the "normal" appliances (Fridge, microwave, downdraft hood vent, igniter for gas cooktop) there is a company called Power XChanger and they build bespoke devices to do exactly what I need them to do, take 240v 50Hz out of the wall and convert it into 120v at 60Hz. The problem is they are quite expensive ($1,600 each). Given I am going to need five of these things, we're talking about $10,000 just to get 120v at 60Hz out of the wall.

I've stumbled upon the idea of using AC Motor controllers (something like this) and setting output frequency at 60Hz, and then taking the output of this and running into a transformer that would drop it down to the appropriate voltage so the final output would be 120v at 60Hz.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Also - one other question.

My wife and I are going back and forth on using a gas cooktop vs a induction cooktop. We both would prefer induction - but absolutely *HATE* the black sheet of glass look that you get here in Germany.

One can source nice looking US models but they are 11kw off of 2 phases at 240 volts at 60Hz (each phase is 50 amps) (240-208/120 VAC; 50/60Hz). The device (VICU53616B) is comfortable at 50 Hz according to the OEM, but it seems to be the dreaded 240-208/120 three-wire solution. I can give it 240 volts across both phases, but I have no way of getting it the 120v neutral line.

Anyone have any ideas how to accomplish this or should I simply go with gas and avoid this mess all-together?

 

[rjenkinsgb]

For the induction hob, you could use a 240V to 120V (or 230V to 115V) autotransformer.
The half voltage tap would be the virtual neutral. Not cheap, but cheaper than a dual wound transformer.

There are also quite a few white (or non-black) ones available in the UK, which are normal 230/240V types.
eg.

Buy White Induction Hob online at top prices | LionsHome UK

Find & compare White Induction Hob at LionsHome UK. ✓ Top-Brands ✓ Low Prices ✓ Latest Trends.

www.lionshome.co.uk

For the other conversions, wouldn't one larger unit be cheaper than multiple smaller ones?
Also, try doing a google image search for each appliance - there may well be versions from the same factories (possibly sold under different brand names) that are intended for EU use?

I'd expect things like the igniter and hood should be OK on 50Hz, just with a small 230V/115V transformer.

The microwave could possibly have a 230V transformer fitted in place of the 115V one, by an appliance repairer?

And the refrigerator may be OK on 50Hz if it's an inverter type, just needing an autotransformer or stepdown transformer.
Otherwise, a refrigeration engineer could probably also replace the compressor in that with a 230V 50Hz one, so again just a small transformer for the electronics power, plus possibly an extra relay to switch the 230V to the compressor.

Not the types of things you would do to new appliances in warranty, but I doubt any warranty would be valid once they were exported??

Industrial power tool "Site transformers" are likely the cheapest form of high power stepdown ones for simple 230V > 115V voltage conversion - the typical yellow box styles. The output from those is centre tapped to earth.
eg.

Sitebox Ltd » LUMER 10 KVA Continuously Rated Single Phase Site 10KVA Transformer (Input 240 Volt/Output 110 Volt) – Code LM07370 » Product

LUMER 10 KVA Continuously Rated Single Phase Site 10KVA Transformer (Input 240 Volt/Output 110 Volt) – Code LM07370, From The Popular LUMER Range of Site..

www.sitebox.ltd.uk

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Generally the frequency doesn't, only in very rare circumstances - it's only the voltage, and can be done with fairly straightforward (and reasonably priced) auto-transformers.

As far as I'm aware, the 'two phase' situation isn't actually true, it's just a single phase of 220V anyway.

But I would VERY strongly suggest you don't bother, importing American gear never ends well!.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Go with gas and save the cost of moving appliances, buying transformers and praying you'll never need parts or repair service while you are an ocean away from parts and know-how.

German washing machines are excellent - they make the worlds best dishwasher ( Bosch 800-series) and a gas range is so much better than induction in my opinion - especially if you are trying to adjust non-max power.

The only issue is the size of the fridge if you are looking for an enormous American-style fridge. On the other hand, the space in a German kitchen and depth of counter tops is much better tuned to a German sized fridge. Besides, the grocery stores are only a short walk away so you don't need a huge one.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Go with gas and save the cost of moving appliances, buying transformers and praying you'll never need parts or repair service while you are an ocean away from parts and know-how.

Problem with going for gas is it's likely to be discontinued fairly soon, I don't know when Germany are planning doing it?, but the Netherlands (which boarders Germany) is relatively close to it. They aren't even phasing it it out (as the UK are), they are planning a switch-off.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Problem with going for gas is it's likely to be discontinued fairly soon, I don't know when Germany are planning doing it?, but the Netherlands (which boarders Germany) is relatively close to it. They aren't even phasing it it out (as the UK are), they are planning a switch-off.

Most Americans who move to Germany are on a 3 to 4-year delegation to work for an international company. Germany is at a stage where large communities have to make a plan by 2028 showing how they will eventually phase out natural gas heaters and boilers. No word about gas stoves as yet. As of now, plans have to prevent new installations of gas furnaces by 2028 - other requirements are still in debate stages.

Most of us will be dead by the time the plan is implemented.

 

[schmitt trigger]

I am curious about the reasons behind the phasing out of gas boilers in Europe. Is this related to CO2 emissions?

I know that in the USA there is a large debate related to gas stoves. But here the reason, if I understand correctly, is health issues because of emissions inside a home.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

I am curious about the reasons behind the phasing out of gas boilers in Europe. Is this related to CO2 emissions?

I know that in the USA there is a large debate related to gas stoves. But here the reason, if I understand correctly, is health issues because of emissions inside a home.

There is in no way a "large" debate. It is a tiny comment by one EPA staff member that Fox News blew out of proportion and the president squashed any rumor of an oven ban that, once again, Fox News refused to report so they could continue to spread outrage about the government taking away your stoves.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I am curious about the reasons behind the phasing out of gas boilers in Europe. Is this related to CO2 emissions?

I presume it's due to global warming, however, pushing the heating load onto electricity with heat pumps is basically just shifting the issue to a different location. I imagine another reason would be where gas supplies come from, with everyone wanting to get away from Russian supplied gas.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

I presume it's due to global warming, however, pushing the heating load onto electricity with heat pumps is basically just shifting the issue to a different location. I imagine another reason would be where gas supplies come from, with everyone wanting to get away from Russian supplied gas.

The US pipeline and shipping companies have built enough cryogenic stations to meet all of Europes needs. The problem now? Scheduling the expensive ships to arrive when the tank in Europe is empty enough to accept a full shipload of NLG. Last spring, ships were loitering around the North Sea waiting for a tank to be low enough to fill (while gas evaporated from them).

 

[Gatriel]

Wow everyone, thanks so much for your answers.

I saw the topic come up over and over again - so I will address this - "Why American gear"

Basically looks, size and price. While it is possible to get native 240/440 stuff in German that is both adequately sized and looks nice, it runs around 150-300% more money than simply grey-market importing a US device.

I don't have a problem spending a lot of money on this remodel, but I cannot justify burning it.

The fridge is low power and the Power Xchanger does the job I need it to - despite its high pricetag.
The downdraft ventilation system and microwave are also low power, can share a Power Xchanger.
The ovens we want share literally 99.5% of their part numbers between US and EU specified models and the parts to convert it over are less than $1,000.
Dryers will be gas as trying to reconcile the 120/240 requirements isn't worth the time or effort, seems like the cooktop is the same as well. Just go with LP and be done with it.

Coffee Maker and Dishwasher will come out of the EU as the US/EU ones are basically the same.

Essentially, we want American-sized equipment that doesn't comply with this "eco-friendly" insanity here so we can use our time more efficiently.

While Germany does make great washing machines, especially Siemens commercial line ... they are TINY. 7kg, 8kg MAX ans then you better be prepared to spend €6k on it.

When you look at EU consumer-grade washing machines, they have a cold water input, normal schuko and are normally between 7-9kg. A normal load takes 2:30-3:00 to complete.

The professional series can do the same work in 45 minutes but also has a 440v 3-phase input, hot and cold water taps but as stated above are ... tiny. Have 3 kids and only have one day in the week to do laundry? Tough luck. Oh, you also better to be ready, willing and able to spend €10.000 on a washer and dryer to match.

The US washing machines have huge drums and even the consumer-grade units have a hot-water tap when compared to their EU competitors. For example - the LG washer I want to bring over holds 17Kg of laundry. There isn't a single consumer-grade washer in Europe that can do this.

Then you have the dryers, which can dry that 17Kg of laundry in less than 45 minutes. Drying that same load of laundry in consumer-grade heat-pump based dryers here will take two loads, each between 2 and 3 hours long.

TL;DR - I'll just go with a gas cooktop and be done with it.

To address the gas thing in Europe specifically Germany - gas isn't going anywhere. Our idiot politicians talk and talk and talk but our current government is the least popular a German government has ever been since the founding of the BRD in 1948. Gas is here to stay, while they would love to kick over everyone to electric heat pumps and kill off the gas heaters in homes, its simply an impossibility. Over 75% of German homes heat themselves with gas. Currently less than 3% of them are in the process of converting from gas to electric heat pumps, due to this 3% the waiting list for these devices is measured in years right now. Then all new construction is required to have a heat pump, and the builders are buying the entire supply of heat-pumps in bulk right now. Why? Their business depends on it. If they cannot put a heat-pump in a house they are not allowed to put a gas heater in it - meaning they cannot start writing their clients invoices. Home Builders are hoarding these things for their own usage as they have no idea what/how much longer the supply chains can hold.

Then you have the personell competent and trained in installed electric heat pumps in houses. After 50 years of "if you want to be successful you have to go to University, trade-work is for losers" social engineering, the chickens are finally coming home to roost. Finding a heating/plumber to do this work is basically impossible as the waiting list for the labor is also years long.

Then you have the issue in Germany that your plumber is the same as the guys who do the heating work on your house. Have a leaky faucet? Need to replace/add a sewage line in your house? Bathroom remodel? Add a electric heat-pump. Yeup, all the same guy. It sucks right now because the government subsidizes the Installation of Heat Pumps by around 40% of total expenditure. Because of the labor shortage and the shortage of the units themselves that 40% subsidy just resulted in installers raising their prices by 50%.

So lets say you run a Sanitär (plumbing/heat described above) business. You can convert/install two heat pumps a week, each one costs around €35.000, so €70.000 for 5 days work. Grandma Heidi needs a new sewer line ran. It will take two days to accomplish. Guess what just happened to the cost of this kind of labour, it gets raised due to Grandma Heidi having to compete for the installer's time with his ability to install state-subsidized heat-pumps.

The Germany you all have in your heads being clean, efficient, free of corruption doesn't exist anymore. We are the UK of the 1970s. God help us.

TL;DR - Gas isn't going anywhere, no worries there.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

The Germany you all have in your heads being clean, efficient, free of corruption doesn't exist anymore.

I never had that impression. German corporations are filled with nepotism - not direct but handshake deals in neighborhoods and at business dinners - where it becomes one-step removed so it is not (completely) obvious nepotism. Kundekinder ("customer's children" - yes, there's even a German word for it) and neighbor's children seem to move up the corporate ladder so quickly in Germany - regardless of their level of competence (or incompetence).

A lot of the regulations and greenwashing in Germany is done to keep "lower quality", and "polluting" competitors out of the automotive and appliance markets in Germany.

 

[Gatriel]

I never had that impression. German corporations are filled with nepotism - not direct but handshake deals in neighborhoods and at business dinners - where it becomes one-step removed so it is not (completely) obvious nepotism. Kundekinder ("customer's children" - yes, there's even a German word for it) and neighbor's children seem to move up the corporate ladder so quickly in Germany - regardless of their level of competence (or incompetence).

A lot of the regulations and greenwashing in Germany is done to keep "lower quality", and "polluting" competitors out of the automotive and appliance markets in Germany.

Boy ain't that the truth. Here the state and industry is rife with corruption, just corruption is made legal and thus its not corruption anymore.

An example - a political party cannot directly send state contracts to entities that donate to them. That is per se corruption and strictly VERBOTTEN!

However, to protect the environment, and building project or building works project larger than say 500m2 requires an environmental assessment to be completed to assess the environmental impact of the building. To ensure "quality" the state only allows a certain handful of enterprises to complete such environmental assessments. These environmental assessments are very expensive and range anywhere between tens of thousands and tens of millions of euros, just depends on the project.

Without a approved environmental assessment there will be no building nor public works project.

So who can complete these assessments? A small handful of very large firms are "certified" by the state to complete them.

How do you get certified by the state? There is a long and complex application process that contains subjective elements to it, where the Federal Agency for Environmental Protection has discretion that need not be reasonable. This Federal Agency is staffed with political appointees that are oftentimes career politicians who go from working for the party, to the government, to a lobbying group and back again.

It just so happens that 100% of all of these companies certified to give environmental assessments are are the only large donors to an invite-only non-profit association that lobbies the German government to "tackle climate change" and "protect the environment." This association is filled with employees of a couple German political parties, the Federal Agency for Environmental Protection, these companies that can provide the assessments. Its all a highly incestusous industry.

Anyways, this association donates MASSIVELY to certain political parties. One of their big "things" is guaranteeing the quality of the environmental assessment should be maintained by the government and outside of private industry which is "corrupted by the profit motive." (I ßhit you not). They run advertising campaigns, "donate" to politicians and plan environmental "activism".

The short of it is - the government has created a closed-door cartel which it protects and certain political parties receive huge sums of money from the non-profit that only exists because it is financed by the members of the cartel.

Its all so dirty yet clean at the same time.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Its all so dirty yet clean at the same time.

If you dig into some of the clean initiatives - like plastics recycling - the amount of energy used to transport it to a disassembly/sorting facility then transport to a facility that can process the scrap into mechanically or chemically recycled materials is not included in any calculations of "greenness" or eco-efficiency. Sadly, without including those collection and sorting costs, the environmental cost of recycling plastic is about 90-95% of using crude oil and making new plastic - and it costs way more emergy than the remaining 5 to 10% to collect. So, nobody wants to hear a negative story so, they just left off the additional trucks, fuel, sorting equipment, collection containers, sorting energy, labor (and transportation of the labor to/from the sorting facility) and on, and on, and on. In the current form, plastics recycling is a really environmentally costly proposition and the only benefit is that nobody has to look at plastic being dumped into a landfill.

 

[Gatriel]

If you dig into some of the clean initiatives - like plastics recycling - the amount of energy used to transport it to a disassembly/sorting facility then transport to a facility that can process the scrap into mechanically or chemically recycled materials is not included in any calculations of "greenness" or eco-efficiency. Sadly, without including those collection and sorting costs, the environmental cost of recycling plastic is about 90-95% of using crude oil and making new plastic - and it costs way more emergy than the remaining 5 to 10% to collect. So, nobody wants to hear a negative story so, they just left off the additional trucks, fuel, sorting equipment, collection containers, sorting energy, labor (and transportation of the labor to/from the sorting facility) and on, and on, and on. In the current form, plastics recycling is a really environmentally costly proposition and the only benefit is that nobody has to look at plastic being dumped into a landfill.

There was a documentary done on our "Gelbe Säcke" which is how we recycle everything here. We put it into a yellow bag and the trash guys come pick it up and apparently recycle it.

Anyways - someone put GPS trackers in their yellow bags and tracked them from middle of nowhere Germany to Bremerhaven where the signal disappeared, then a few weeks later it reappeared in the Philippines just for it to reappear a few days later some 400 km off the coast of the Philippines for 45 minutes or so before ultimately disappearing never to be seen from again.

Come to find out - the recycling company that the German government had been subsidizing had just been dumping millions of tons of plastic waste directly into the Pacific.

Its all a scam to extract wealth from normal people and give it to the government.

 

[schmitt trigger]

The Germany you all have in your heads being clean, efficient, free of corruption…..

For me at least, that image was shattered by VW’s diesel-gate.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

For me at least, that image was shattered by VW’s diesel-gate.

It apparently didn't shock the authorities enough to shut them down so I assume the authorities are pretty familiar with that scale of corruption. Besides, they said, VW is too big of an employer to fail. Not true of other parts manufacturers. If you build an airbag that rusts a bit over years of Florida salt spray and humidity that injured a 12-year-old girl's face and may have contributed to the death of 6 accident victims in major crashes, then that company needed to be fined into oblivion (bankruptcy) and sold to another parts maker who continued to use the same alloys and designs since there is no other approved designs or alloys to keep production rolling (don't want to shut down Detroit's or Germany's assembly lines).

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

The Germany you all have in your heads being clean, efficient, free of corruption doesn't exist anymore.

My daughter lives in the Netherlands, near the German border (so often pops over for cheap petrol and cheap beer ).

However, a few years back when she was working in the Netherlands as an Intern (as part of her Masters degree), her and a group of fellow interns used to go away every few weeks to see various places across Europe. One place they went was Cologne in Germany, they were all disgusted at the state of the place, the trains were covered in graffiti, and even Cologne Cathedral and the chocolate museum had graffiti as well.

When we visited our daughter a few years ago, they took us across to Germany for a visit - interesting comparison - the Dutch roads are like snooker tables, as smooth as can be, as soon as you cross into Germany the roads are as crappy and pot hole blighted as the UK roads

Obviously the Germans have a good PR department

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Obviously the Germans have a good PR department

I'd just say the Marshall Plan made old cities look new - for as long as new lasts. After the new wears off, all cities start to look the same. There is no PR department reminding you that German Roads are excellent. - just your friends and neighbors (or yourself) repeating an old memory from the last time they were in Germany (40+ years ago).

Also, what is the benefit of a snooker-table-smooth roadway? I'd say Germany will sell more German SUVs with road-smoothing active suspensions if the roads are bad rather than good Germans just buying any inferior imported sedan with a basic suspension to drive in smooth roads.

 

[Gatriel]

Germany is an un-mitigated disaster.

The biggest problem is cultural. Germans are by nature incapable of taking any idea and moderating it. Every idea that reaches some level of social/cultural "critical mass" must be taken to its logic conclusion infinitium ad absurdum.

Its why we as a society and civilization destroy ourselves once a century.

This time the "idea" that has obsessed society to the point of suicide is the idea of "tolerance" stemming from a never-ending tsunami of post-war guilt imposed on us by the English and Americans.

The general idea was Germany destroyed itself last time because we weren't tolerant in any of way of different perspective to the point of (here comes this cultural autism again) wanting to make the entire world German so they shared our perspectives of things (e.g. had we accepted that other cultures exist and had a right to exist we wouldn't have killed ourselves in the 1940s).

And while there is a core element of truth in the statement, we've taken it to the extreme conclusion that we have to tolerate literally everything so we don't destroy ourselves again. So graffiti everywhere - we should tolerate and support the aspiring artists who are seeking a canvass to express themselves. (Don't forget that "last time" the German government was completely intolerant of almost all forms of art it didn't like so we have a "special responsibility" to artists to allow them to practice their art as they deem fit and necessary to express themselves.).
Its the cultural defect which caused us to go from "Germany is a loose association of German-speaking peoples in central Europe" (ca. 1865) to "Every community that has a contingent of Germans in it is obviously German and should be governed by Berlin or Vienna (ca. 1871) (and I say this being a huge fan of Otto von Bismarck), which set the stage for the next crisis to our East and West which brought us into WWI.

Then the English and the French really dropped the ball with Versailles and spun off a political movement that started off as "Lets Make Germany Great Again" and turned very quickly into "We're so swell, lets make everyone German"
Then the insanity related to the European Union kicked off in 1956 and was our autistic "pressure release valve" the past few decades along the lines of "If some form of pan-European cooperation is good, then more pan-European cooperation is better and a European Federal Super State is best" which was our cultural obsession the past few decades with horrible consequences (as always) for Germany as a nation, Germans as a people and basically everyone even remotely touching and concerning the EU. (Fun fact - the Euro as a currency has been a net negative for EVERY NATION THAT USES IT except for Luxembourg - they're doing better with the euro than without it - but literally everyone else - its been a disaster).

Then in 2015 our cultural autism shifted focus from "European Unity über Alles!" to "Oh look - poor brown people - due to our history we have a moral obligation to help them."

And it started off (as it always does) innocent enough, delivery of humanitarian aid to Syria, Lebanon and Turkey - but then that autism and brutal desire for efficiency kicked in - "We can delivery X amount of humanitarian aide to poor people ("we have a special obligation to due to our history") all those thousands of miles away - but we could help them much more efficiently if they came to us."

So then they started showing up by the millions starting in Q4 2015 for a few years but then the war in Syria died down and the demand for humanitarian assistance subsided. So then in a cultural panic "we have to help due to our history and the special obligations we inherited therefrom" we decided that simply fleeing a war zone isn't the only reason someone could come to Germany as a refugee, but if you are from a poor country or if you are a climate refugee (don't forget - due to our long history of industrialization and colonialism we have a special obligation the peoples of Africa and they have a right to asylum through poverty inflicted upon them by our ancestors or as climate refugees due to our high CO2 per capita output).

Then if you speak out against this whack-a-doodle clown show people still refer to as "Germany" you are immediately silenced because "due to our history, we have a special obligation ... blah blah blah"

Suffice it to say - things are going to continue getting worse here until most German cities look like Kenosha, WI ca. 2020 at which point the government will collapse and something new will be ushered in.

Demographically we have problems but are still in a far better position than the US, UK, Canada, France, Sweden, Spain or Italy. We just need to make sure everything here really starts burning before we develop "no-go" zones and all of Germany starts looking like Cologne.

Also - if it helps - Cologne is perhaps the ugliest city in all of Germany next to Duisburg. Even Eisenhüttenstadt (a city personally designed by Stalin's favorite city planner and architect) is seen as a better-looking place to exist than Cologne is these days.

Had she gone essentially anywhere else it would have been a better experience. She visited the German version of Baltimore, basically.