And we are not your slaves...

Norator said:

For killivolt, Jonsea and Ian Rogers, I have to ask if this is a good use of your time, as in, Are there better things you could do with the knowledge, skills and abilities you possess?

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I get a "feel good" factor from helping.... I run my own company, so my time isn't an issue... What I get from helping is, believe it or not, more knowledge.. I enjoy it, so its an absolute divergence from the stress of management....

Well that and Unreal Tournament!!!!.

I have helped a few of the guys here in one way or another and it was time well spent. Many of us have.

There is personal reward in helping others learn. The problem is that this sort of person is not learning. Feels wrong to invest much time in them after one realizes that.

misterT said:

Mostly I post an answer because the subject interests me.. so I refresh my memory, maybe research some new things and that way I learn new stuff. And of course because I have done all that work, why not post an answer.. there are two benefits for posting: You help other people, and you get feedback/new ideas/corrections from others.

So, I feel like I get the most benefit when I get involved in threads.. most of the time.. Sometimes I act like an ass, but hey, can't be too serious all the time.

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Wow, those are my thoughts also.

Often. when thinking through a problem to try and express the solution through the keyboard, it improves or refreshes my understanding of the relevant theory.

So, helping helps me.


On the other hand, I can think of a couple of occasions when I have put effort to reply to someone who has just dissapears.
A one post wonder!

There are other times when I will reply early to a query, only to find that the thread degenerates into the sort of mire resulting from a refusal to understand on the part of the OP.
Refusal to Understand = Failure to Understand carried to extreames!

There are also queries which may interest me, but make me think "I will not touch that with a barge pole!"
Usually I am right.

JimB

be80be said:

Lol Norator you praised some one that runs this forum down as being good how do you base that. ?

And don't take that wrong but out of 3947 post I may of ask for help 47 times. In five years.

But you pick 3 people and one is not here for the good of ETO and I'm sure the two that's left know I'm not talking about them.

This forum has some of the Greatest minds out there. And it's a hard job to keep it going people think that weeds should be weeded it's not that easy.

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Yes it is that easy. Tell EM, if you want a forum that is only for those serious and capable people, you should have a test.

Create a lower forum where novices and those looking for a hobby have to pass a Test. If they don't improve they can't be accepted in the main forum.

It will weed out those in a lower part of the forum, they can read your forum but, not post.

(Yes, you can separate the wheat from the chaff.)

You would truly have a Members only forum, then your time hasn't been ripped off or the forum is run down after all your skilled labor and hard work.

Edit: By the way, this is what the Members Lounge is for..... (Relax for a bit and unwind, have some fun. This forum is for talking about non-electronics stuff amongst fellow members.)

killivolt said:

Yes it is that easy. Tell EM, if you want a forum that is only for those serious and capable people, you should have a test.

Create a lower forum where novices and those looking for a hobby have to pass a Test. If they don't improve they can't be accepted in the main forum.

It will weed out those in a lower part of the forum, they can read your forum but, not post.

(Yes, you can separate the wheat from the chaff.)

You would truly have a Members only forum, then your time hasn't been ripped off or the forum is run down after all your skilled labor and hard work.

Edit: By the way, this is what the Members Lounge is for..... (Relax for a bit and unwind, have some fun. This forum is for talking about non-electronics stuff amongst fellow members.)

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You are a beaut Buddy

You tell it the way it is

Old tvtech

Have at it see what happens I bet you this the good will leave with the weeds. I never have posted to help any one that new how to program and it's the new posters that get my help.

And I don't want to play in the kiddie pool I can swim. And reading some long winded post about the same stuff and the new reply's really crack me up.

Testing sounds good but what would be the test lets say If you can't write in ASM code to read a switch and blink a led. That wouldn't be right would it.

Next how about if you can't do the same in C is that better. No

Then lets try basic the same thing. That's not going to work.

Then if you don't know ohm law and all the buddy's can't get in the big pool. LOL what would be the the test that works for all the members. ?

Feel free to show me a easy one that will make even five of the best posters happy.

I think all the sub-forums are great. I mostly read the microcontroller sub-forums. Full of "proper" discussions and not much nonsense or lazy students. Maybe first time posters do not find those little corners or are just too lazy to post on the right place.

Maybe PICs should have their own sub-forum too.

Ian Rogers said:

I get a "feel good" factor from helping.... I run my own company, so my time isn't an issue... What I get from helping is, believe it or not, more knowledge.. I enjoy it, so its an absolute divergence from the stress of management....

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Do you get the same "feel good" factor after "helping" if you realize this person isn't learning at all?

That's the problem I have. I always enjoy helping people. Teaching is a passion of mine, and I very often do it with no expectation of reward, except for the "feel good" feeling you speak of. But when you try to help someone and you pour out your knowledge and advice, spend hours upon hours with them helping them to (presumably) learn, and then they come in the next day asking the EXACT SAME QUESTION, how does THAT make you feel?

Personally, when that's the case, I don't get the "feel good" feeling. I get the feeling that this person is lazy, inconsiderate, and downright rude.

Matt

I hear what your saying Matt??? I realize that sometimes I may be flogging a dead horse... On the other hand, some people really struggle to take it in... They want to learn, but learning does take it's toll... What do you do...Give up on them???? Maybe sometimes we don't explain ourselves fully... Maybe sometimes what we see as plain easy... really isn't!!

I play it by ear....If they don't learn EVER... Not my problem.. I did my bit.... High tolerance level...

When we started breaking out sub forums in microcontrollers I suggested a PIC forum but EM felt that the main forum was the PIC forum.

To a degree the newbies keep the forums active. If we create a place where only the pro's can post will there be anything much to talk about. I guess it depends on how high the bar to entry is set.

I started this thread in micro controllers because it was in regards to people needing help in that area. It was moved to the lobby and I don't really have a problem with the move but the focus on uC related help is no longer implied.

Matt aka D8 aka DerStrom8 said:

But when you try to help someone and you pour out your knowledge and advice, spend hours upon hours with them helping them to (presumably) learn, and then they come in the next day asking the EXACT SAME QUESTION, how does THAT make you feel?

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LOL For or the one drummer in chat every day is like starting from lesson 1. But that is not quite the same thing. But you question hits the nail on the head. And as I pointed out we are not doing the guy asking the question any real good. What happens when he gets his first job and can't program his way out of a paper bag. The kindest thing we can do is stop these people early on and get them on the right track. But it is impossible to do when others are happy to write their code for them.

But it is impossible to do when others are happy to write their code for them.

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When we talk about an infamous Indian gentleman... I do feel its a lost cause.... Its impossible to train.. teach... help!! So whats the answer!!! Ignore... That's probably worse..

If someone genuinely needs help... He WILL learn.... The chap in question will NEVER learn no matter if you run his life for him...

Ian Rogers said:

When we talk about an infamous Indian gentleman... I do feel its a lost cause.... Its impossible to train.. teach... help!! So whats the answer!!! Ignore... That's probably worse..

If someone genuinely needs help... He WILL learn.... The chap in question will NEVER learn no matter if you run his life for him...

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I think that ship has sailed but I think there was a time when it was still possible.

Ian Rogers said:

I hear what your saying Matt??? I realize that sometimes I may be flogging a dead horse... On the other hand, some people really struggle to take it in... They want to learn, but learning does take it's toll... What do you do...Give up on them???? Maybe sometimes we don't explain ourselves fully... Maybe sometimes what we see as plain easy... really isn't!!

I play it by ear....If they don't learn EVER... Not my problem.. I did my bit.... High tolerance level...

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By all means, do NOT give up on someone who is actually trying and willing to learn. That's really a judgement call on the part of the person doing the "helping". If it actually seems like they're doing any good, then I strongly encourage them to keep going. However, if the person clearly isn't trying to learn and is just asking for answer after answer, rather than doing any thinking on his own (we all know who I'm referring to directly this time), then I trust those "helping" will see it and at least speak to him, telling him how he's acting and to try to shape up. If he doesn't, then perhaps they should just let him/her go and refuse to help further. Otherwise, they're just wasting their time and teaching the poster that it's ok to ask others to do all their work for them.

I'm not trying to single you out Ian, nor am I trying to tell you what to do. I intended the above paragraph as a general statement, not directed towards anyone. I hope you understand.

Matt

I just looked at the latest on his thread. Ian, you gave very clear code and were even kind and generous enough to comment every piece to make it clearer and more understandable, and he still asked you to explain it to him. Before that he even demanded that YOU fix his code. How is that different from demanding answers, without doing the work on his own? I don't think it could be any clearer that he has no interest in learning. He only wants the answers.

Also, I'm sure you're very familiar with the homework policy here at ETO. It is asked that members do not just give the students the answers to the problems. How do you know this isn't his final project, and you're handing it to him piece by piece, without him learning from it at all?

I am sorry, but something really ought to be done about it. I understand you mean well, and I know how awesome it feels to actually help someone. But this is outrageous. He insists on coming in and demanding answers, and several people (not just you) oblige by giving him the code, all worked out and commented and everything. Is that really doing anyone any good?

I think that's the point of this thread--to show that this is exactly what's happening.

I respect you, Ian, and I really hope you--and the others involved--can see this from our point of view and understand how true it really is.

Regards,
Matt

Ian Rogers said:

When we talk about an infamous Indian gentleman....

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At last I finally know who and what your talking about.

3v0 said:

I think that ship has sailed but I think there was a time when it was still possible.

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Maybe but, for someone like me, to be able to see the full progress, the buffering and calling them out, among other things.

I only now how to do that in a pre-canned GUI driven Crestron Program. I had no idea how it flows in a real program and I also learn what it takes to complete a program, I would have never known it, if not to read the whole thing.

For the rest of you it's old hat (Boring). But, for me it's revealing, something I've wanted to see for such a long time. I'm sure their are plenty (Out on the net) who read it and gained more than I did. (Something maybe not considered)

The Original OP never realized the effect he had on so many and I don't think most of you do either.

Sometimes that's just how "some" people work, at least I do and I think Ian has a better handle on it, than anyone. I like his attitude.



Sorry 3v0, I didn't mean to target you with my comment about the location of this Thread. It would have been better in the Site Issues & Feedback, I didn't know you started it elsewhere.

Have at it see what happens I bet you this the good will leave with the weeds. I never have posted to help any one that new how to program and it's the new posters that get my help.

And I don't want to play in the kiddie pool I can swim. And reading some long winded post about the same stuff and the new reply's really crack me up.

Testing sounds good but what would be the test lets say If you can't write in ASM code to read a switch and blink a led. That wouldn't be right would it.

Next how about if you can't do the same in C is that better. No

Then lets try basic the same thing. That's not going to work.

Then if you don't know ohm law and all the buddy's can't get in the big pool. LOL what would be the the test that works for all the members. ?

Feel free to show me a easy one that will make even five of the best posters happy.

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In a way that's not all that hard to do if you are working in an area of your own expertise. As I have done multiple times in threads I simply put little bits here and there that are not exactly right but that would be obvious to those who are capable of understanding what I am explaining or working with.

Sometimes it's literally as simple as a single line obviously drawn to the wrong point, connection or IC pin in a circuit diagram or a obvious incorrect reference or wording that anyone who knew the material would easily spot or be able to cross reference to something like an IC's specs sheet or the like.

If a person makes a post asking about the error I know they are thinking. However if they keep asking for a schematic or an explanation that was clearly given in the very beginnings of the thread plus covered multiple times over since I tend to see that as an obvious fail on their part to read understand and or grasp the concepts being covered.

Simply put like recognizes like and can easily spot a fake or if they can't pass the "Easter Egg" tests they more than likely are not up to being able to grasp the concepts of why or why not something can or cannot be done even if you spoon feed them.

I think that ship has sailed but I think there was a time when it was still possible.

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No.... I follow him on AAC as well.... It was never possible....

Take the member ABSF... He IS learning, and quite well I may add..... Even John has started to help him...

Ian Rogers said:

No.... I follow him on AAC as well.... It was never possible....

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Has anybody told him that learning means reading and studying. If he learns from forums he does not learn how to solve new problems. When he forgets some details he does not have anything (book, website, correct terms to google) other than forums to help him. You are explaining to him how the particular code works, but you avoid using "fancy" terms like pointer, function prototype/declaration/implementation/definition.. etc. I bet he does not even know the difference between pre-compiler and compiler. Or what is macro and how to write one. Or what optimization means.. or the "volatile" keyword.. etc. etc.

I forget how to do things all the time, but it takes me under five minutes to pick up a book, find the right chapter and refresh my memory. He comes here and starts all over from the beginning.

Ian Rogers said:

When we talk about an infamous Indian gentleman... I do feel its a lost cause.... Its impossible to train.. teach... help!! So whats the answer!!! Ignore... That's probably worse..

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You should be tougher. Even worse is to hand him all the answers. You might even become the reason he does not have to learn! Be tougher.. point him to good websites etc. and make him study and to show some effort.

EDIT: I read some of your recent answers in those threads and I see you are running a little out of patience there

I am a bit bored here while drinking my "morning" coffee.. sorry for flooding, but this kind of fits in this thread also.

Ian: What was your motivation to start the thread https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/calling-all-youngsters.134295/? Are you planning to write tutorials and self-study material? I've been writing some course material, but I've been struggling to get started in the beginner stuff. I don't know how to start and in what order should topics be. And how detailed the material should be..

Anyway I think it would be great if there was a collaborative way to collect all kind of bits of information in one place. Things like "what is a register and how to use them", "How timer/counters work", "PWM with timer/counter", "what is pull-up resistor".. etc. And I think this material should be as processor independent as possible. Maybe some examples for PIC/AVR.

This would help us to deal with beginners. We could point them to that information and with their feedback we can improve the material. I'm in if somebody knows a good way to do this. I don't think this forum is a good platform. It should be a wiki or something like that.