Audio Video Battery question

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jeep642

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Hi, I'm new to this forum and after months of searching I figured may be someone with knowledge in electronics might have the answer.

I'm a film maker and I'm putting together a camera system based on the Canon 5D mark II camera.
It's a still camera that shoots high definition video.

The problem is that, by itself, it's far from perfect. The footage is great but sound recording is bad and it's not practical in terms of handling and battery life.
To make it work well, you need a few things:
- a sound preamp to feed a signal strong enough to the camera so as not to use the camera pre-amp (the trick is to bring the recording level in the camera to zero + one click that way the built in preamp doesn't affect the sound)
- an external monitor or viewfinder.
- one main battery to power the whole thing.

The problem comes when I try to power everything from the main battery. I use SWADJ3 25w switching regulators to go from the 14-16 volts of the Anton Bauer main battery to go down to 7.2v for the camera, 12v for the monitor and 9v for the external preamp.

If all the elements are powered separately, everything works fine.
If I use a common battery for everything, it generates a huge amount of noise.

It doesn't sound like a ground loop. I used ground loop isolators, no luck.
The noise fluctuates depending on what the camera does. If it's idle, less noise, if it's computing a lot (recording, using video out), there's more noise.
Someone told me it could be oscillation because my power source is not stable enough, so I built a circuit based on a LM317 (may be more stable than the SWADJ3) no luck.

Obviously the problem comes from the fact that all the elements use the same battery, so I bought a virtual battery (**broken link removed**) to power the preamp, no luck.

I'm still convinced that I need some kind of circuit that would create two isolated completely independent power sources from one battery but I can't find anything like that on the web and my knowledge in electronic is too limited to be able to come up with one.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
JP
 
I think that you started with sensible solutions. Either the ground loop isolators or the virtual battery, which I think is an isolated power supply, should have got rid of any problems due to ground loops.

Is the monitor adding to the problem, or is it that the video camera causes noise in the pre-amplifier if they share a power supply? I suggest you try to get it working without the monitor first.
 

Well, neither the ground loop isolator nor the virtual battery really helped.

But yes, adding the monitor adds noise. If you power everything but you do not use the video out or the video display on the camera itself, the noise is very low but as soon as you use the on camera display or the video out, it gets pretty loud.

One thing that makes me think it's definitely not a ground loop is that this noise is quite high pitch and fluctuates depending on what the camera is doing. A ground loop generates a much lower and constant sound.
 
Seems like one (camera?) is coupling its' power system noise to the others. The high pitch maybe the DC-DC converter it's using. An o'scope should help see & qualify activity/device to the trouble.

I'd start with decoupling capacitors (.01, .1 ceramic & 1uF tantalum) Right At the power inputs of each object. Good Hunting, this can be hard to suppress. <<<)))

P.S. The video raster signal explains the camera display & video out. The additional "noisy" signal And power consumption point to decoupling too.
 
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"switching regulator"?

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/DE-SWADJ3.htm said:
typical ripple is 25mV and under ideal circumstances

i'm not really qualified to say for sure, but i'm going just bet that your mic preamp will hate that.

getting clean power to you preamp is super important.

- a sound preamp to feed a signal strong enough to the camera so as not to use the camera pre-amp (the trick is to bring the recording level in the camera to zero + one click that way the built in preamp doesn't affect the sound)

for one thing, i honestly don't see how this would defeat the camera's AGC.

i'm going to strongly strongly recommend that you just go dual-system: use a dedicated audio recorder... sync in post... i know it's a hassle but if it's not completely compromising your production approach, a separate sound-recorder is the way to go. even with a better than built-in preamp, you'll still have to get through the camera's ADC and data compression. 'handling noise' from having a mic attached to the camera has been known to cause issues also... granted there's no tape transport, but lens motors would pickup i think.
seriously... dual-system... use the camera's built-in mic or external mic to just sync the dedicated recorder's sound in post.
that said. if you HAVE to record onto the camera for some reason, use a separate battery for the external mic-pre-amp..
figure out a hack to properly defeat the AGC.

oh.. you need phantom power also?
 
"switching regulator"?



i'm not really qualified to say for sure, but i'm going just bet that your mic preamp will hate that.

getting clean power to you preamp is super important.

With what kind of circuit do you think this would be doable?



The new Canon firmware allows you to kill the AGC. (I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. AGC is crap.)

I use Nikon all manual lenses, so I won't have any motor issues.

I already went with the dual system on some productions (Indie films, corporate, ITVs) but what I'm trying to achieve is a more "Electronic-News-Gathering" or documentary system, where you just switch it on and you're ready to shoot, so you don't have to turn on the camera, the monitor, the preamp and make sure regularly that each one of the batteries is not dead.

The Juicedlink DT 454 that I use does have phantom power.
 
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Here's the schematic for the PSU with the SWADJs. As you can tell, pretty basic, which is probably why I have issues.

12v is for the monitor.
9v is for the preamp
7.2v is for the camera.

Also, the diagram to show where the sound comes from and where it goes.

and a zip file of a recording of the noise:
@0s: all off
@2s: preamp on
@8s: 5D on
@13s: video out on
@18s: monitor on
@24s: 5D recording

The sound has been recorded from the headphones out of the preamp. It would be exactly the same to record it out of the camera.
 

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  • PSU.jpg
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  • 5D Noise.zip
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"switching regulator"?



i'm not really qualified to say for sure, but i'm going just bet that your mic preamp will hate that.

getting clean power to you preamp is super important.


So I started looking for a more stable regulator and I came across **broken link removed**.

I just finished making and testing it and...no luck.

I did 2 things:

first I powered the preamp with the new circuit and the camera with the SWADJ = noise
Then I powered the camera with the new circuit and the preamp with the SWADJ = noise

So either it's not stable enough or it's another problem.
 
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