can HV fire off a HI

This entire project--using high voltage in the process of electrolysis. It's a bad idea to try to apply very high voltage to a circuit and only change a few components. It's a bad idea to work with high voltage when you have little to no experience with electronics in general, much less high voltage. It's a bad idea to have high voltage sources anywhere near a hydrogen generator and a hydrogen-oxygen mixture. The list goes on, Doggy. Just please forget about this project--I promise you, no good will come of it. You're only setting yourself up to either be electrocuted, burned, or have your property destroyed. Trust me on this--there are too many things that can go wrong.

Well you have my undivided curiousity now!

What do you want pure sodium for?

The only way you will electrolyze the sodium out of NaCl is to heat it up past its melting point which is around 1500 F.

It's not a matter of making the granules small enough. NaCl in its crystalline form is simply non conductive.

If you are really wanting to do this all you need is a porcelain crucible and a good hot flame from a propane torch to heat the crucible up to melt the salt.
From there it should be fairly easy to electrolyze the two elements apart into metallic sodium and chlorine gas using carbon rods as electrodes and a few volts at what ever amps you have available.

Basic workable concept here.



Safety something or other disclaimer. Burns hurt, chlorine gas is toxic, and sodium is highly reactive with water and oxygen. blah blah blah have fun anyway!

Careful tcm, he might take this seriously. You don't want to encourage him--this is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted by anyone of his experience level and without proper direction from a professional chemical engineer and without proper protective equipment, etc.

I have actually requested that the moderators close this thread, as the discussion has moved towards much more dangerous projects than a simple hydrogen generator. Doggy, what you are describing is more dangerous than you seem to realize, and "just being careful" won't be anywhere near enough. It's not worth it, and you need to trust me on that.

Matt

Thnks for the concern, they are duely noted I will take every precaution and reassure you that i am not going to be putting water or hydrogen in there so there will be no room for explosions, only SALT!

as for the hv i will ensure to use proper safety, if you have a better way i'm happy to hear, im sorry but i need to get this one, or at least the data of someone else doing it,
if there is a flaw in my theory that you can highlight i may need to rethink it , but i see no reason why the salt wont breakdown with these alterations. I may also want to observe this in a vacuum as well, but one thing at a time here.

i have to admit, i thought that was pretty simple circuit, my transistor will swap out for a flash tube & trigger coil, and i will modify the transformer to act as the flash trigger supply.

*** Flash tubes have a cathode with flattened radius, that reduces hot spots and decrease sputter caused by peak currents, which may be in excess of 1000 amperes. ~~wiki

Dr_Doggy said:

Thnks for the concern, they are duely noted I will take every precaution and reassure you that i am not going to be putting water or hydrogen in there so there will be no room for explosions, only SALT!

as for the hv i will ensure to use proper safety, if you have a better way i'm happy to hear, but i need to get this one, or at least the data of someone else doing it,
if there is a flaw in my theory that you can highlight i may need to rethink it , but i see no reason why the salt wont breakdown with these alterations. I may also want to observe this in a vacuum as well, but one thing at a time here.

i have to admit, i thought that was pretty simple circuit, my transistor will swap out for a flash tube & trigger coil, and i will modify the transformer to act as the flash trigger supply.

*** Flash tubes have a cathode with flattened radius, that reduces hot spots and decrease sputter caused by peak currents, which may be in excess of 1000 amperes. ~~wiki

Click to expand...

No Doggy, you did not read my post.

DerStrom8 said:

Doggy, what you are describing is more dangerous than you seem to realize, and "just being careful" won't be anywhere near enough. It's not worth it, and you need to trust me on that.

Click to expand...

It's not the type of thing you should just "be careful" with. It's the kind of thing you must NOT DO. You clearly don't have the experience or knowledge yet, and even if you did I'd be hesitant to help. It's a recipe for disaster no matter how you look at it. Just listen to me and do NOT attempt this. There are too many things that can go wrong.

You can make a simple electrolysis device to observe salt build-up to run on low voltage, safely and with little risk. If you choose to do that, then I'd be happy to help. But if you insist on trying to use a high voltage, I refuse to continue this discussion.

NO EXPLOSIVES

I want to CUT OUT THE 1500 DEGREE FLAME aswell

that is more dangerous than 30 kv flyback i have laying around

k, bye, ima go try now, have 9-3 lives!

also tcm, ty, they melt salt on youtube, besides in retrospec if this works has anyone stopped to ask how a FARNSWORTH FUSOR would compete in electrolysis of my salt?

maybe i should just go striaght DC for now.. instead of bendini pulse technology..?

ty again DerStrom8 i will at least not use pvc, or a tesla coil and understand your objections,

btw, i am serious here.... id rather have a few kv than a K*C flame

Careful tcm, he might take this seriously. You don't want to encourage him--this is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted by anyone of his experience level and without proper direction from a professional chemical engineer and without proper protective equipment, etc.

Click to expand...

At the moment what he is proposing for the power circuits makes no sense anyway so I am not overly concerned about it really.

ACK, what does not make sense?

The whole point purpose and concept.

Just do the math on your circuit once and you will see why.

oky, lemmie step back again to a lower voltage!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1PfmTheFM

if that switching circuit is bogus i could see that , but he did prove example on youtube, according to his claims he is running on 300ma 15 watts to achieve that production although he did not give concrete results there is a visible increase if you compare to other DC HHo cells at that voltage,

maybe im wrong but iv always seen pure water as a dielectric, or capacitor, the current through it during the electrolysis process is then leakage current, is it not plausible then that by using similar methods we can cut out the excess losses, but still have the ionization?

again i agree that energy isnt free, but every time i look at ppl doing this i just see them pumping in more jiuce, i cant help but wonder if proper sized pulses would increase efficiency?

even if that diagram didnt work is there some way i can test my theory?

there are simpler ways to extract sodium, but extracting from any halide salt is extremely difficult because of the affinity sodium (a strong alkali metal) and chlorine (a halogen at the opposite end of the periodic table) have for each other. i'm actually not going to give you any more clues on the specialized processes for extracting metallic sodium, because it is a hazardous material in it's pure form, and can burn skin on contact (by the same process it reacts with water). as a matter of fact, i'm considering a Wile E Coyote Award for this thread.....

Ugh. You have supposed Stanley Myers and John Bendinni scam work together trying to make HHO or pure metallic sodium.

As I have asked before, WHY? Why exactly are you trying to do what you are doing and 'just because' is not an answer.

Myers was proven to be a scam artist and the Bendini circuit is just a common single transistor flyback oscillator circuit.

SO what's the real reasoning here anyway? Wile E Coyote at least had a goal in mind when doing what he did!

BUT is it only scam since they don't do what they claim, BUT are they better than convention? is the hho cell as efficient as electrolysis with just a pair of electrodes, and does this guy run in to problems with oxidation?
plus if he is doing it without electrolyte which as mentioned releases harmful CL than that is another reason why id prefer the scam method.


here is the method of madness:

---h2o, simple, you zap it and you get the hydrogen at the - side and O2 at the + side, fine i can dig it but why is it the O and is it always the O that shows up on anode, is it because its on the right side of the equation, ie XXO. what if it were on the left, would it show on that corresponding side...... ie for other compounds such as CaH3, if we zapped that would the H still go to the - side(i don't really care what compound).... also while those gases are forming at the nodes i wonder if the energy forming it also holds it there at all, by some static field or something, or maybe like charges repel......mostly i wonder because when i seen the salt electrolysis i noticed the sodium glob pooled at the node for some reason...why.why.why?

--- that first question comes from the salt, but while i was observing crystallization. and i know the basics: that it is from the salt being in a supersaturated condition in the water, and pushes the molecules together, causing the formations, so what happens if we removed the water, or even if we just melted the salt? no pressure, no good, rite, the molecules are happy where they are and only miniscule domains would form. inversely what would happen if we sucked all the air between the NaCl out, would the salt clump and crystallize when melted or would it expand outward to compensate for the lack of pressure and not crystallize at all?

---come to think of it what is thermodynamics, i have always understood it as as simply:
(triangle)heat=(triangle)pressure=(triangle)energy= cost of triangle = not free

---but having look at that over and over again, and maybe im wrong but what i see is that for our HHO fuel enough heat can combust it, OR enough PRESSURE, OR energy. then again same with any other fuel O mix, which makes me wonder about the poor little atoms perspective always dealing with boundaries and stability, I wonder how it sees the outside forces around it, is it all just big bro invading their turf, is there really a difference between heat and pressure, and what about electricity then? if we can substitute pressure and heat for each other and still cause reactions then maybe energy fits in there too?

---i think that is what leads me to my question here: how far can that substitution go? but really i want to know all those things..

i hafta admit though although sodium is cool, what would really distract me from all this is some one step plans for potassium, way cooler@! okok, it would only distract me for a day or 2.
lol, all this talk about sodium though gives me the idea to invent the sodium match,, just add water, btw tcm how is your skid cooker?
i still like this guys idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMWWScFyjH0 even if all the suit is building up in the water technically hes making soda pop..

I still sit back and look at that skid cooker of yours, you put in skids with some air, and out comes suit, heat and other oxides im sure. and the more you put in, the more energy($$) you get out, now as we discussed you cannot put tons of garbage in it since there will be too many pollutants, however if there was a way to take those things out (without filters you need to change and throw away), maybe turn up the heat a few degrees for better breakdowns, then we can burn all the garbage we want, also there have been several revolutions in the industry that maybe we could process those wastes to renewable, and this would cost less to work with since out product is still hot, or we can just take that excess heat and use it for something else.
and then we need to consider some of the heavier wastes from garbage, plastics would vaporize to co2, again, we need filter, and other metals would melt out as liquids which are still warm and again, that much closer to processing.

in my city they buried a pile of garbage, and now they need a huge torch coming out of the ground to burn the excess methane buildup down there

btw..just found this-
https://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2010/July/28071001.asp

i cant say exactly where im going, maybe just chasing my tail, but thats the scent im on... and its in this direction....

The O goes to the + side because it has more electrons than the hydrogen. They spread out, reducing the strength of the pull of the protons in the center. Opposites attract, so the Oxygen atom is more strongly pulled towards the + side. Hydrogen only has one electron, so it is more strongly pulled towards the - than the +.

..so as a general rule the denser atom goes to +?

I think you need to take a few chemistry and physics classes.

Some of your logic and reasoning is way off which is why people like you will follow the HHO scam artists and defend their work. You just don't know better.

Unfortunately doggy, I have to agree with tcmtech. You really don't know enough to be able to make an educated decision whether something is legitimate or not. You, like millions of other people all around the world, have fallen into these scams and crap theories that were created to fool people who don't know any better.

I suggest you lay off the chemistry and electronics until you actually learn something about each one. You'll thank us later

i have to disagree, i have not referenced anything that has not been done before, however if there are any assumptions iv made that are not credible id really like to know where my flaws are. (except my virtual filter)

also i know we both keep repeating ourselves and fine, maybe the modified transformer wont work.. that was just one guy

but i still have not heard anyone say which method of electrolysis is better..... pls cut and past this" HHO method is a worse method of electrolysis compared to the conventional electrolysis process"

please highlight that conventional electrolysis is more efficient than the HHO style... since that is my only basis about that

again i am aware of what you are saying about following these guys, and have learned alot by following these guys and now understand what is happening when these guys do those things, and where they are making their mistakes. resistance is everywhere,.

i think though (in my last few post) if i am asking these questions , i am ready for answers, if there is anything i can read to educate me further that would be great,

looking at it though which chemistry course will tell you what happens when you run gas exhaust through a water filter, and will the fumes saturate the water?

The problem is that you're asking questions, but you continually shoot down the answers we give you. We can't help you if you refuse to accept the truth. If you want to keep believing in this garbage that's your choice. But don't keep asking us to help if you refuse to listen.