Check my math/concepts

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

OK, here is the deal.

The recipe calls for premixing two containers using fresh chemicals:

A). A suspension 1 lb into 1 gal of warm water
B) A solution of 1 lb into a 1 gal of warm water

The individual solutions are stable indefinately.

When you use them, you need to use a quart of A and a Quart of B into 2 gallons of water.

I mixed my solutions up as 1 lb into a 1/2 gal of water because I want to use a non-tank sprayer to spray at the maximum rate of 8 oz of material per gal of water.

My math suggests that I can use a 1:1 mix of both solutions and use the 8 oz/gal setting of the sprayer.

You have 2 solutions that are 1 qt:2 gal (8 qts) or a 1:8 mix
8 oz/gal is a 1:16 mix.

Thus, if I doubled the concentration of A&B, I need to mix the solutions in a 1:1 mix and use the 8 oz/gal setting to get the same effect as the original mix.

Did I do it right?

 

[jpanhalt]

Not sure I understand exactly what you are doing, but remember, "a pint's a pound the world around." Not quite sure how you got from 1 pound per gallon to one quart (i.e., 2 pounds).

Glad we Americans can have a little discussion to ourselves.

John

 

[duffy]

Uhh... a gallon of water's about 8.3 lbs, when you add 1 lb of chemical that will make it about 9-point-something pounds - but we don't know what the subsequent volume of solution is. Without that we can't figure the rest of it exactly.

However, jpanhalt's suggestion that you are probably off by 2 to 1 looks like it may be true. Seems like it should be about a pound of each into one gallon of water rather than into 1/2 gallon.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Any references to oz is liquid ounces, not force units.

Your dealing with two liguids that were supposed to be mixed in volume 1 quart each and added to 2 gallons of water to make 2.5 gallons of product.

I doubled the concentration in the prmix, by only adding 1/2 as much waterin the hope I can use a sprayer that will take the product and automatically spray it at 8 liquid oz/gal.

I plan to mix the concentrated premixtures at 1:1 and place in my sprayer. The sprayer will automatically add water such that 8 liquid oz. of the 1:1 mix gets added to 1 gallon of water.

The idea with the sprayer is to be able to transfer unused product back to the container.

The article states to add 1 lb of copper sulfate to 1 gal of water and 1 lb of calcium hydroxide to 1 gallon of water. Then it states to take 1 qt of each and add to 2 gal of water and place in a tank sprayer.

One the mixtures are combined they must be used immediately.

The details: http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7481.html

 

[duffy]

Cripes, that page is trying to express pure ratios using mixed units of weight and volume, no wonder it's so confusing. Anyway, I understand how your sprayer works now, it automatically adds a LOT of water itself. So lets work this backwards -

The sprayer has a ratio of 8oz:1gallon = 8oz:128oz = 1:16
That's pretty thin, your concentrate is going to have to be pretty thick.

Using the 10-10-100 thing is the same as 1-1-10 or .1-.1-1 or .1lb-.1lb-1gallon in the final spray (remember we're working backwards).

So for that 1 gallon of sprayer-water, you need .1lb copper sulfate and .1lb lime in that 8oz premix.
Keeping the same ratios, this is
= .1lb + .1lb + 8oz
= 1lb + 1lb + 80oz
= 1lb + 1lb + 40oz + 40oz
= (1lb + 40oz) + (1lb + 40oz)

So 1lb of copper sulfate in 40oz of water, and 1lb of lime in 40oz of water.

Hmm... 40oz... I suggest getting two 40oz beers in glass bottles with screw-tops. It may not even be possible to dissolve an entire pound of copper sulfate in 40oz of water and if you have a beer first you won't be as upset.

 

[jpanhalt]

I get the same answer as Duffy, but worked backwards from a little different perspective.

If it helps, here is how I saw the question:

1) The original recipe had 1 quart of each diluted to a final volume of 2.5 gal = 1:10 dilution

2) Your sprayer at 8oz. per gallon of spray is a 1:16 dilution

3) Since the material being sprayed is a 1:1 mixture of each component, the final sprayed dilution of each component is 1:32.

4) Thus, your concentrated stock solutions need to be 3.2X more concentrated that the original recipe.

5) 128/40 (per Duffy) is 3.2.

So we have the same answer.

John

Edit: The solubility of anhydrous copper sulfate in water is listed as 320g/L at 20°C. It shows a significant increase with temperature. The concentration you need is 383g/L, so a little warming will be necessary.

 

[tcmtech]

If you dont have to register your actions or chemicals with the EPA just dump it all in and call it good!

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Not exactly what I got. I'll come back to this later. I did manage to dissolve 1 lb of copper sulfate into 1 qt of water and suspend 1 lb of lime into 1 qt of water. But, I now have 1 lb in a 1/2 gallon of water for both. It's in a 1.5 gal HDPE (Nalgene) carboy each. We do agree on the ratios, so ratios available are; 1/16, 1/21, 1/24, 1/33, 1/43 and 1/64 and 7 more to 1/1280 on the sprayer.

My solutions are 2x more concentrated right now, but remember they don't include 3 gallons (2+0.5+0.5) of water which would give the the same original mix if sprayed in a tank sprayer.

So, if I mix 1:1 what then should be the closest new rate? I'll try to go over my math again.

tcmtech: I found a place to get the chemicals in 500 gr quantities so I removed 45 g or so. My digital scale goes to 200 g.
They are basically lime and tree root killer which you can get at Home Depot, but I got them as reagents. The lime was messier than the copper sulfate. I did wear an N95 respirator and a trash bag suit.

 

[jpanhalt]

Is your copper sulfate the pentahydrate (blue) or anhydrous (mostly white) form? It will make quite a bit of difference on how much to use.

John

Edit: Just did a quick check on the question about using hydrate or anhydrous copper sulfate. Wikipedia says hydrate. "Bluestone" as stated in the recipe implies hydrate. And this reference (https://www.copper.org/applications/compounds/copper_sulfate02.html) says the copper sulfate is 25% by weight copper, which means it is the hydrate.

You should have no problem in dissolving the needed quantity of copper sulfate pentahydrate (blue crystals) calculated above in 1 quart of water.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The blue version. About 1/4" x 1/8" xtals. They also suggest Calcium oxide which I didn't get. It might be harder to obtain.

 

[jpanhalt]

I've been looking for quick lime myself to make a paint remover for plastics, but haven't found it either. In fact, even finding finely powdered hydrated lime (Ca(OH)2) is hard in Cleveland. My HD doesn't have it in anything other than coarse granules for gardening. I've been told to try commercial concrete places.

John

 

[duffy]

Calcium hydroxide? Try an aquarium store, "Reef Kalkwasser" is one brand of pure calcium hydroxide.
You can also get it from Amazon -
https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-399-...5WPG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328485467&sr=8-6

Amazon also has the calcium oxide "quicklime" -
https://www.amazon.com/CALCIUM-OXID...GH88/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328485817&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/CALCIUM-OXID...LSI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328485817&sr=8-1

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

It also looks like Amazon has Calcium Oxide: https://www.amazon.com/CALCIUM-OXID...2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1328486234&sr=1-2-catcorr

 

[jpanhalt]

The problem with that is at very roughly $35 /lb, it is quite expensive for what is basically old-time mortar -- quick lime plus lake sand = mortar. The Ca(OH)2 cures by reacting with atmospheric CO2 and converting to CaCO2 (limestone). That is why I just need to take to time to go to a real concrete vendor.

John

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The point turned out to be moot anyway.

The spray was not sustainable. It was just too thick, so i had to use a tank sprayer which worked OK.

 

[jpanhalt]

Thanks for the update. Do you know if it will work on Fairy Rings? My local ag. guy didn't mention it. He suggested just using a high-nitrogen fertilizer and trying to burn them out without burning the grass.

John

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I lost what I wrote.

Here are too links: https://www.fairyring.ca/fairyringcontrol.html and https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/02/UVC20Selection20and20Information20Guide.pdf

to inspire some thought.

And also the idea of using a sod cutter and sterilizing the soil and possibly placing lawn fabric saturated with fungicide down.
i.g. use the sod cutter. Dig to a foot. Remove soil. Sift and irradiate. Put a lawn fabric barrier down. Soak with fungicide. Put grass back. Irradiate with UV-C.

But the soapy watter and a plug cutter sounds like it could be easier.

I'd also get the soil tested and do what's reccomended. By tested, I don't just mean ph.

 

[jpanhalt]

Thanks for the links. The use of microbial interference with another strain sounds interesting. You might be amazed at how beneficial microbial interference can be to our survival.

The area involved is a small pasture of 2 to 3 acres. I first noticed the problem this Fall when a forest ranger visited and we went for an extended walk. At that time, we only saw three rings. But still, a simple solution will be best. I will get the soil analyzed in the Spring and get advice from the agricultural extension. All said, the soapy water approach sounds pretty easy.

John