Climategate: "Hide the Decline"

BrownOut said:

Googel "divergence problem" and you'll get a treasure trove of data on the supposed "hidden" data, much predating the hacked information. Nothing was ever hidden.

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Then why discuss hiding it?

Even if they didn't hide it, they discussed hiding it, right? How is that better?

ke5frf said:

The very first person on this thread that accused someone else of not thinking of themselves was you, sir. Now the spinning begins.

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Completely not true. Better read again. Or else you should quit spinning.

BrownOut said:

Completely not true. Better read again. Or else you should quit spinning.

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From your first post:
"It's the brainwashed, lazy and unthinking that buys conspiracy theories based on stolen, trumped up and exaggerated misinformation."

The world according to tcmtech, in your eyes, I imagine you think of yourself as the world most interesting man.

**broken link removed**

You come off as a self proclaimed expert in just about every social issue that pops up on this **** chat forum. You have studied this and studied that and seem to have the pulse of the nation, and the world for the matter at your fingertips.

You speak so matter of factly that you would have us believe that your smarter than scientist and any other profession that is actually trying to make this world a better place to live.

What exactly are your credentials that validates your expertise and invalidates those with doctoral degrees. Please enlighten us on your sources that you have studied so vigorously that invalidates some of the best scientist in the nation.

Our American government and business systems are two examples known world wide for how money and those who have it will dictate what they want to be seen as right or wrong regardless of the real truth for better or for worse that may be behind it.

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World wide? Please share with us this tidbit of news that the minions have yet to learn. Was it conspiracy.org?

I've studied the real sources of information and seen how and what is used to make the numbers that the scientists use and the politicians and clueless tree hugging Eco tard half wits twist around to proclaim they are right. What scares me the most is that what they say is right and good continually proving itself to be far more ecologically damaging and stinks worse than any open pit land fill ever has or ever will.

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Do please share these resources with us. The simple minded public deserves to know the fountain of information that you seem to have.

I have read your post for months and have ignored them, but this latest post just irked me. It would be nice if you could provide supporting information before you make comments like...

clueless tree hugging Eco tard half wits

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Mikebits I realize your sentiments and Brownout's are genuine and I respect those. I also respect your assessment about other posters, or me for that matter if you choose to have one. However, appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and is a horrible tactic. We are all free to have an opinion, regardless of our expertise. And lack of expertise does not negate our judgement as wrong either. Two hundred years ago the expert opinion of medical science was that Africans were an "inferior species". I for one am glad that era is over.

I've taken part in threads like this before. But does anyone actually think anything useful could possibly be discussed in a thread like this especially if the institutions involved in the first places are currently in a massive dispute with the press trying to feed the bloody frenzy? This thread is a waste of time, energy, and worse intelligent people.

The sad fact is my post will just be a speed bump on the meteoric crash into sanity that will reach several hundred posts with NO content if people don't immediately.

I have no problem with someone speaking their piece or giving opinion, but to speak matter of factly denotes a tone of authority which should be backed up with substantial evidence.

As far as this comment goes,

Two hundred years ago the expert opinion of medical science was that Africans were an "inferior species"

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I think this was thinking that was based more on biblical thinking than scientific judgement. I refer you to the mark of Cain.

In 18th century America and Europe, it was commonly assumed that Cain's "mark" was black skin

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Curse and mark of Cain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As TCM has said, much of the old world was dictated by religion and not science. On this point we do agree.

Scaedwian, it is entirely OK for people to have a debate on the internet. It happens each and every day and on occasion, rare as it may be, sometimes people see the other party's point of view and at least garner a tad bit of respect for it.

I myself have ALWAYS respected the core motivations behind climate science. I do my very best to be a steward of the environment. I always turn down bags at convenient stores for merchandise I purchase and often bring reusable bags to buy groceries. I have never owned a car that gets less than 25 MPG. My Christmas lights go off before bedtime, etc. I'm doing the little things voluntarily but will be damned before it is forced upon me in a global-socialist regime.

My liberties are far more valuable to me than the overstated, as evidenced by climategate, fear campaign that has been underway for over a decade now.

Anyhow, I do not think censorship or attempt to quiet a discussion is any more worthwhile than a fruitless argument. I'm not trying to be rude, but I surely hope that this thread, which is news-based and current event related, doesn't get "locked" just because someone on the forum disagrees with its right to occur.

Mikebits said:

I have no problem with someone speaking their piece or giving opinion, but to speak matter of factly denotes a tone of authority which should be backed up with substantial evidence.

As far as this comment goes,

I think this was thinking that was based more on biblical thinking than scientific judgement. I refer you to the mark of Cain.


Curse and mark of Cain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As TCM has said, much of the old world was dictated by religion and not science. On this point we do agree.

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This may be true, but scientific judgement was heavily influenced by politics, which happened to be strongly influenced by religion in days of yore.

Today, science is still influenced by politics, and I care not whose politics it is influenced by, for that isn't important. It is the essential fact that it IS, and SHOULDN'T EVER BE that disgusts me.

Oh, BTW I did find an alternate definition for "hide". Perhaps Phil Jones was speaking of animal skins?

The skin of an animal, especially the thick tough skin or pelt of a large animal.
tr.v. hid·ed, hid·ing, hides
To beat severely; flog.

Or perhaps he was referring to the flogging that he wished upon a skeptic in another e-mail.

(LOL, this is too funny as to be almost surreal.)

Debate == a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints

If this is intended to actually be a true debate there needs to be a single question, two viewpoints and an organized and structured debate. All I've seen so far is typical forum crap. These threads go from point to point to point to point with NO content, no results, no debate.

Ever notice how many people on the internet are millionaires, in line for Nobel Peace prizes (waiting for their checks to clear, Obama has more banker friends), drive exotic cars, have the fastest... Well, you get the point, it's fantasy land for a lot of people. Usually people hiding behind screen names, rather than using their own. Sure, sometimes you need something to set you apart from Bill12247, or you have a website, call letters, or something else. For some it's a character they play act with, some even have several. I've got a pretty sharp memory, and some weird thing for picking out patterns. Anyway, I don't let a lot of this antagonistic garbage get to me anymore, some people just enjoy disrupting discussions, stirring-the-pot, mostly just for the attention.

We do no own this planet, we are just parasite along for the ride. We do not own the land we live on, as many have seen their homes buried, flooded, swept into the sea. We can't just settle in, and decide this is how it's going to be. The planet moves at it's own pace and direction, doesn't care whether we live or die.

Harvey and Scaedwian.

I posted the original post on this thread. It is a topic of great interest to me. I have read IPCC reports (not in entirety admittedly). I have also read Steve McIntyre's work at Climate Audit. I have spent many an hour reading and commenting on RealClimate threads. I'm sorry to say that RealClimate, the site of the climate scientists, is notorious for sensoring unless Mr. Schmidt can offer a rebuttal. They do not wish to have the slightest skeptical question asked over there.

At any rate, my motivation for posting the topic is to speak my mind, and that is simply all it is for. Unfortunately I do not have a great number of friends and colleagues who enjoy discussions like this, and by and large they all agree with me anyway. Quite honestly, it doesn't challenge me much to "sing to the choir" about such topics.

Having the discussion in a forum like this, with intelligent people of alternate points of view, is often interesting and sometimes good for a challenge to my own intellect. I will say what I often say, but with an "electronics spin", if the discussion is distasteful for you, "spin the tuning capacitor" hehe

World wide? Please share with us this tidbit of news that the minions have yet to learn. Was it conspiracy.org?

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Ever watch the world news? Or read about what we are doing in many parts of the world without any actual justified explanations as to what we are doing there? Its not too hard to see that we as a country toss our political weight and financial power around to get what we want.
Thats it, no conspiracy. Just pointing out that sometimes we as a country do as we collectively please because we do have the power and wealth to swing things in our favor if we really want to. Its not always done for the good of the world or anything ever so noble. Sadly sometimes its just done because we can.

Do please share these resources with us. The simple minded public deserves to know the fountain of information that you seem to have.

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Seriously? Dont you ever read the news and about things online that interest you?
Have you never once checked out the sites that do post their findings on scientific data collection and methods of analysis?
Try it some time and see what information you see on the news and then see what information you can find to confirm it. I can bet whats tossed around in the news and what you do find for actual collected data is not always going to match!
Its free to do, just spend some time looking and reading thats all. Make your own judgments from there. I dont expect you to believe or follow the same reasonings as me. In fact I hope you find your own conclusions to believe!

As far as Clueless Eco tard half wits. Have you never heard or read what complete and utter mindless garbage some of these people come up with to justify what they believe and how they think that everyone else should have live as?
Many of them have no idea about how life works outside of their home area and what they have seen. The ones I am referring to are the ones who come up with insane sounding reasonings and theories to justify ridiculous proposals and actions based on complete and utter lack of common sense and experience in the real aspects of what they are talking about.
Personally I think they are worthy of far worse descriptions than what I ever call them!

I imagine you think of yourself as the world most interesting man.
You come off as a self proclaimed expert in just about every social issue that pops up on this **** chat forum. You have studied this and studied that and seem to have the pulse of the nation, and the world for the matter at your fingertips.
You speak so matter of factly that you would have us believe that your smarter than scientist and any other profession that is actually trying to make this world a better place to live.
What exactly are your credentials that validates your expertise and invalidates those with doctoral degrees. Please enlighten us on your sources that you have studied so vigorously that invalidates some of the best scientist in the nation.

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Now see how easy it is to have YOUR OWN OPINION too!
I like social commentary. I find human interaction interesting and I also find how we do things as a society interesting as well. I think that how others manipulate and control how our society or will let themselves be controlled by it is fascinating!

I am not an expert and I dont care if anyone thinks I am an interesting person from any perspective for the most part. But I do think what I think regardless of whether anyone else thinks the same or different.
As far as I know no one here needs to be an absolute expert on electronics or related subjects to take part in the discussion of them or to share their views in regards to what they find interesting.

I will be who I darn well want to be and I will speak what I want to speak. If you dont like it use your blocking function on your controls and ignore me or just dont read my posts. I dont mind.
Like they said back in the old days, If you dont like whats on, change the channel and watch something else. If you cant find anything you like turn it off and go outside!

TCM, I have seen your latest prose and it seems I will need to read again to make any well thought out rebuttal. Unfortunately my wife is making me attend a Rock band party tonight (What ever that is) so I must get ready for that, but I will respond to your remarks and comments at a later time. I trust we can make this a simple debate and lets not make it personal in which I may have crossed the lines in my earlier post. Sorry about that.

OK, my last post for the night.

I posted the definitions of hide with sarcasm in mind. But I really wish to have someone offer a theory that explains "the context" of climategate. I've read about 50 of the e-mails so far and I see a pattern of contempt for anyone, published or not, who has any doubt about the integrity of the data. But rather than bolster the data with better data or better explanations of the data, they discuss ways to diminish the importance of data that conflicts and offer no reasonable explanation for why it is "diverging". Even though they know about the diverging tree ring data, and though it isn't a "secret" and has been talked about in peer-review journals, they are still looking for ways to hide it. If that only means "make it appear less problematic" is this any less damning? But this isn't what I sense the reasoning is. My sense is that to "hide" it meant to hide it from the "lay public" for which they have so much contempt. They want the pretty little hockey stick graph, because in their minds pretty pictures are all that will convince us. And if they make the data easy for us toddlers to digest, it will be left up to the "people in the know", ie the scientists, to sort out the rest.

This isn't deception with intent to lie. It is deception with intent to disallow the public from forming opinions. They complain on one hand that we do not know enough to have informed opinions yet they try to cover up information that might make us more informed. It is control and manipulation, politically motivated, of the highest order. And I'm frankly disappointed.

Wait a minute, I admitted somewhere that I don't know what I am talking about?
Where did I do that?

No, I posted this to have a discussion about current events. Good grief when did that become a crime?

This site ventures very close to socialism or fascism at times on its own accord.

Hey Sced, can you do us a favor and use a smaller stop sign. The text is going off my screen edge

Scaedwian will you please stop wasting bandwidth with that grafitti? That is a form of trolling too, if you want to call trolls trolls.

And BTW, no, I posted links to sites discussing current events.

I see threads started like that daily here. It is the emotional charge of the topic that gets to you, because you'd rather not see the carnage. Again, turn the tuning cap instead of trying to be a policeman. I have done nothing wrong here. In fact, I read a similar thread a few weeks or months back about the very same topic where you participated in the discussion. Shall I link to it?

Dont worry Mike I am happy to get opinions from the guys like you!
I take it in well meaning and I understand how things get around here. Have fun with the wife and take care!
Plus yes it does keep my ego in check which is needed from time to time.
Just dont make too much of a habit of it then it just starts to seem your rather mean spirited towards me.


HEY Sceadwian, How do you get the giant stop signs to show up like that? I can never get my stuff to be any bigger than a tag.