Consideration of the Ethics and Safety Aspects of Commercial Products.

1) I saw a "mechanic" try to remove the decoration bolts on the hub cap of my car instead of removing the hub cap then removing real bolts on the wheel.
2) The oil filter on my car fell off on the highway a few minutes after a "mechanic" changed the oil and filter.

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You're not the only one who has seen that. Some years ago I worked as a copier repair tech and I was on a service call to one of our local auto shops. While fixing their machine I saw a mechanics certification plaque with the name of one of my buddies on their wall listing his as their top certified tech with all of their other apprentice techs certificates under his. As far as apprentice certification went basically if you spun wrenches their for more than 90 days without getting fired you got an automatic certificate plaque stating you were an apprentice tech.

Thing was he had not worked there for at least five years and had left due to disagreements about proper job conduct, practices and having to be in charge of a shop full of untrained idiots.

ericgibbs said:

If its obvious that OP is inexperienced and is likely not to be able to follow or understand any detailed advice given,IMHO its better just to say 'dont do it' until you have knowledge required to do it safely.

I would not expect someone of 13 years to be in a position to give sound technical advice on what is safe and what is not, when he has no idea of the caliber of the guy he is giving it too.

Also how can you be sure that the OP the op does not do the job he says he does. ?

E

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Well it is probably deleted now, but in one of the threads where posts were deleted, he stated he had,had 20 previous job's as a electronics technician. So if it is obvious he lacks experience, then the conclusion must be he is lying about his experience, or he is utterly rubbish at the job. As for being sure, he has never once despite being asked, given any information as to who or what industry he is in.
Also in one post it was mentioned he was qualified, but yet struggled with Ohms law and simple Logic gates.
I dont attempt to give sound technical advice, I try to help if I can, I like to test my knowledge and here is a good place to do it in a safe way, I know i can give an opinion and if i am wrong it will be corrected. Also if anyone pays attention to what i post, if I do give advice i clearly state my age and the fact i am a novice.
As for being able to tell the knowledge and caliber of the guy, read what you yourself have just written,

"If its obvious that OP is inexperienced and is likely not to be able to follow or understand any detailed advice given"

So why should my age stop me from being able to see the obvious about people? I have also read what the op has stated, that he has a great deal of experience and is qualified, this part gives me a good clue as to his caliber.
Being young and inexperienced does not make me stupid, or disqualify me from contributing to a thread if I can. Maybe there should be a discussion on what age a member should be before he can offer help?

So why should my age stop me from being able to see the obvious about people?

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Logan,
Because as a 13 year old, thats if I am really discussing this with you Logan and not your Dad.??
To be honest, I am never really sure.

You lack the experience IMHO to give advice to other members regarding matters of Safety relating to the work the OP is doing.

Perhaps in a few years time, when you have been working in the real world and gained practical experience you will hopefully be in a position to give such advice.

Your manner when addressing me and Billy Mayo comes across as disrespectful, if you continue in this way you have a difficult time when you start work, your work mates will not be so tolerant.

So my advice at this time would be to concentrate on your studies at college/Univ in order to get qualifications.
You have a lot to learn, so stay focused on your studies.

E.

Dad ALWAYS say's in a post if its him! But i kind of like it that you are unsure, it means either he is stupid and appears 13, or I am clever appear older.
As for disrespectful, I would argue you are being guilty of ageism, And lets be honest you dont need much experience at all, to be able to tell if someone with no or little knowledge of electronics, working on aircraft parts is dangerous.
My disrespect as you see it was from me answering a post you directed at me, or maybe my age simply does not give me the right to reply to you if i disagree?
For the record I have alot of respect for you, but constantly using my age as a reason for me not to answer a post directed at me, with anything other than agreement will erode it quickly. If 'KIDS' are not allowed equal rights on here then that should be clearly stated. If i have broken a rule in my previous post then kindly point it out, and i will apologize and correct it, otherwise please stop applying rules, solely based on my age.
As for work later on in life, only time will tell, I may decide not to bother with qualifications, from what i have seen they are not needed, you simply go work as a technician, and get your most basic questions answered on a forum, and at least by that time i will have moderation protection, from anyone who dare suggest that I am not fit to do the job I do.
LG not gm11, who is at present in Carlisle until this afternoon

i will have moderation protection, from anyone who dare suggest that I am not fit to do the job I do.

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Would you care to to explain what you are trying to infer in the above comment.?

You are not listening to whats being said, Moderation is here to protect all members including you, from any other member who breaks ETO rules and guidelines.
With regard to your 'erosion' of respect, thats your problem not mine, I will continue to apply the rules and guidelines.

As for work later on in life, only time will tell, I may decide not to bother with qualifications, from what i have seen they are not needed, you simply go work as a technician, and get your most basic questions answered on a forum,

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If this is what you decide to do, go ahead.

And I thought I was complicated with issues...

One thing to remember is ETO is a Technical Forum. Finish and klaar.
Everything else that happens is insignificant...I don't post Political stuff here anymore...

I now try to see stuff from other peoples views instead of my own..

1. The Billy thread is a dangerous one. I have refrained from getting involved.
2. As far as I know, all ETO Members here help as much as possible.....there is no ETO CLUB involved....or OLD BOYS or whatever....as long as I have been a Member here...I have to answer for any suggestion I make. If I talk crap and give crap advise...I expect to be corrected. I like it that way. That is how I learn.
3. And so too, should the other temperamental idiots out there...

If someone bothers to correct you or help you.....or argue or debate with you or show you or try again and then again and again to help and you become nasty......then you suck. Billy Mayo go away...Please.

There are far more deserving people out there who pick peoples brains and LISTEN at least.

tvtech

Ok I have had time to think. Eric I dont agree with you! But equally I do feel YOU, deserve more respect from me than I have shown, not because of your age but because you earn't my respect long ago. I have no respect for the OP, I will never agree with some of what has been said, But I am sorry for the disrespectful remarks to you, and any bad feeling they may have caused.
So I wont post in this thread anymore, because I dont want to cause problems to, or for my friend. I am doing this out of respect, not because I am afraid to speak my mind
LG

I am glad the other thread has been closed.
I was shocked to learn that Billy Mayo was actually Walters before (as I suspected) who was banned (but Billy Mayo is not banned).
I was also shocked to learn that Billy Mayo had 20 previous electronic technician jobs (we can see why).
I was also shocked to learn that the circuit boards were brutally damaged by "testing".
I was also shocked to learn that the circuit boards that had many parts randomly replaced were for aircraft.

ericgibbs said:

hi,
In a current thread, concerns have been raised regarding OP's asking questions that could have a bearing on the safety of a commercial product.

My own view is that the company who manufacture and sell a commercial product are wholly responsible for the product meeting the statuary safety regulations.
For example: a product that could affect airline safety would be subject to either CAA or FAA regulation.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.
Eric

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I agree with your thinking Eric. I have also worked with a good deal of safety of flight / safety of life equipment over my career. In this case the OP's employer has a responsibility as to the service(s) they provide. This is normally well spelled out between the agency providing the service and the agency buying the service. ETO is a forum for electronics enthusiast and I do not see any charging for advice. It's sort of a hobby forum.

Looking at the few drawings posted in this case they look familiar and yes, when I see certain terms used I believe them to be aircraft test sets of sorts. What the OP is doing is between the OP and his/her employer. I haven't a clue what QC or QA inspections are performed before something goes out the door. I simply do not know enough to have any concerns.

Ron

Certain members ability to totally ignore a request for their location, job description or even their level of electronic expertise as well as ignoring repeated requests for schematics, diagrams, pictures or even further information always makes me suspicious.

There are two distinct members who do this on this forum (and one who has calmed down a bit), both of whom do exactly the same on other forums. In fact they are both another forum I use under different names but asking exactly the same questions.

I've given up replying to their posts (in general). It appears they don't have the knowledge to do their job and are expecting more experienced members to carry them through their work. At least on the other forum there is some humour as they get ripped to shreds !

Sometimes, 'we' can be wrong when forming an opinion of an OP.
I have my own example, where I was certain a member was doing a bit of trolling and ego-stroking, perhaps from two accounts, and added my own attempt to 'out' them.
I received quite a few PM's from a number of esteemed members along the lines of "I think you are onto something there" and "That thread has raised my antennae too" , "That's quite a bizarre exchange." etc.
I ran with it and guess what?
I was dead wrong. I held my hands up and learnt a lesson:
I now know enough to accept that I don't know enough...
...About electronics and forums in general...
...And in certain cases, I should keep quiet.

Sometimes, 'we' can be right though.
In these instances, instead of jumping on a member and challenging them openly on the forums, would it not be better to report their posts to the Mod/Admin team and try to keep the threads focused on the electronics side, rather than the personal, subsequently derailing the thread?
If enough members report a post/thread, I have the utmost confidence that our chosen Mod/Admin team are suitably-qualified to review and possibly lock a thread, where it is deemed that there is a risk to the safety of anyone else attempting to replicate the project, or if it can be established that the 'project' is a critical system, commercially constructed to protect human life.
I accept that the Mods/Admin have a lot to deal with already, but if there is a thread/post which is disputed by a certain number of members, perhaps it could be marked "Locked pending review"?

I do have concerns regarding the thread which raised the question, if the OP is to be believed, but at the end of the day it is not ETO's responsibility if something goes wrong with the way testing is performed within a repair facility.
ETO is a forum aimed at electronics as a hobby, with very-experienced members, lesser-experienced members, and other hobbyists offering advice.
It is not a paid consultancy.
If anyone feels that they are not getting value-for-money whilst frequenting this forum, please ask for a refund of the price that you paid when joining.
How much was that again?


Kindest regards and best wishes to all for the New Year.

First of all i am posting so everyone knows i have read the thread. i am not going to get into the whole LG side of things, at least not in this thread. I will post a different thread at some point and i will give my views.
As to the rest of this, i can see different sides and views and i dont feel at the moment i have anything worth contributing, so in other words i will keep my mouth shut.
But Mickster has raised an interesting point that i would like to see discussed, this would probally be better in another thread, but to outline it.
Mickster is of the opinion this is a hobbyist forum and i agree with him, thats exactly how i view ETO.
But is it? what kind of forum is ETO exactly? There are some who bristle at the idea of this being a site mainly for the hobbyist, some will only refer to it as a technical forum, others i feel see this as a place for engineers, and hobbyist are tolerated (just). I think its time to have a open and honest debate on what ETO is and who it is aimed at.
The reason is, i see a constant conflict on here about what should and should not be posted on a thread. Some who would like to view it as a technical/engineers site, cannot tolerate any form of banter in a thread, there is constantly shouts of keep on topic (not so much of late granted). There is also alot of nic picking on small technical issues, and at times OP's post a question and it is clearly stated they have little knowledge. There question is seemingly answered fairly quickly and in a way that most OP's would grasp, then along comes all the Mr/Mrs nitpickers and technical perfectionist, before long the thread descends into (from some OP's perspectives) a totally pointless debate on some small technical issue, and they go away more confused than when they arrived. The funny thing is rarely is there ever a shout of keep on topic or anything else.
Not so much at the moment but in the recent past, there seemed a concerted effort to turn this forum into a dry and arid desert of purely technical talk, the OP was expected to post the question with ALL relevant information, with complete disregard as to whether or not, the OP had enough knowledge to supply every last detail and schematic of what they wanted to do/fix etc. Then they get one or two highly technical answers and the thread was considered done with and over, on an engineering forum aimed mainly at professionals, i would expect this kind of stringent straight question and answer format, everything nice and tidy, all information in some kind of chronological format.
But i wouldn't expect it on a site aimed mainly at the amateur or hobbyist, yes its great that ETO holds so much information, but what is it? Is it some kind of hybrid Wikipedia for electronics, or is it a place where people with the same interest come and share projects and discuss electronics, with the overall information contained within seen as a bonus, and not the primary point?
Like i say probably best done in another thread, but i would really like to hear others views, i have been open with how i see things and i would like to know how others see it. BUT above all i would like to have one simple question answered.... WHO IS ETO AIMED AT, AND WHAT IS ITS PRIMARY FUNCTION? ok actually two questions .
Before i go one thing i will say about the op being discussed, it would be helpful if we actually knew his situation, for example, is he someone that has blagged himself into technical jobs, over a long period of time, with no prior knowledge or training? in which case billy hold your hands up, everyone. ESPECIALLY in the current climate has a right to do whatever it takes, to put food on the family table and pay the rent. But time to own up, honesty in this instance would go a long way to you getting respect and help here, i would also advocate one of two things, get proper training (maybe say night classes) or consider another career.
Or is the OP someone that somehow passed exams and just isnt any good at what they do, in that case Billy, feed the family by all means, but start looking for other jobs outside of this field, i see your time of getting help here shortening by the hour.
JASON
p.s Billy if i have offended you, feel free to pm me and i will gladly tell you what i think, particuarly to some comments that have been posted

I painfully looked at the other thread ...

It pained me to see AudioGuru attempt to answer questions from a self-proclaimed electronics technician who hadn't did their own research.

It pained me to finally see some partial schematics, proprietary in nature, posted on the internet, of printed circuit boards. The title of the thread was very loosely related to the thread. It appears that the OP was troubleshooting subsystem boards without any test jig or complete mockup. The OP's troubleshooting protocols were suspect at best, potentially causing problems vice solving problems. Without direct knowledge of his managers statements; I'm not ready to believe some of the statements by the OP, mostly because of the nature of his questions.

Once the aircraft issue was raised, mostly by the presence of the schematic, and the prima fascia evidence of the OP's ability, the members here should have restrained from "helping" and the thread locked. I would hope the moderator delete the links to the schematics because of the proprietary nature. I know the purpose of these internet threads is to be helpful, but, I personally draw the line when safety is involved. Safety includes safety of the individual as well as others. I still refrain from some topics depending on the location of the OP.

I did review the rules of the forum with respect to the homework area and they seem about normal for that area. There is no sticky about the general chat area with respect to rules.

What is the owner's vision and expectation of the visitors? This is his baby, and receives help from those acting as moderators.

I saw that it was painfully obvious from a newbie (Little Ghostman) to electronics yet oblivious to the OP.

I generally don't visit every area. It wasn't till this thread that attracted me to the other thread.