Darwin's 201st birthday...

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smanches

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Just wondering if there is anyone who truly believes that science and religion must be exclusive of each other, and why?

Why do people who believe in creation believe that Darwin is absolutely wrong? Why do they always have to be exclusive of each other? Couldn't evolution be Gods way of creation?
 
I don't see why agreeing with the theory of evolution means you can't be a creationist, it's just incomparable with the literal interpretation of the story of genesis in the bible.

It's possible to believe that God was responsible for the start of the universe and the creation of life and that life from then onwards evolved according to the principles of natural selection.


I'm not a creationist and I don't believe in god but I can't prove that there definitely is no god so does that make me agnostic? I don't know and neither do I care.

Evolution is hardly a completely solid theory, there are plenty of spaces in fossil records and the beginning of life itself is still a subject of pure speculation.

I'm not even 80% convinced that the universe started with the big band, I'm no expert, it does seem a good theory but I don't see how any scientist can be sure of it.
 
Just wondering if there is anyone who truly believes that science and religion must be exclusive of each other, and why?
There're many who believe that. Especially fanatics in either stream. There are many that believe that the world was created in 6 days, only a few thousands of years ago.

Why do people who believe in creation believe that Darwin is absolutely wrong?
It's not absolute - the catholic church believes in creation (I assume), yet they also support many aspects of science.

Couldn't evolution be Gods way of creation?
AFAIH, "god works in mysterious ways", so who's saying that it's not.

According to wikipedia (the source of all my concrete facts) et al., the literal interpretation of certain parts of the bible has been discouraged by many for >100years. It also seems that the church is reconsidering (or evolving - ehh dirty word) its stance towards science. Perhaps it was feeling on the outer due to the people turning to faithless/tangible science. Well, there's my totally biased view.
 
What does this topic have to do with Darwin?
Science and religion have never been exclusive of one another, right wing idiots on both sides might say otherwise though.

On a personal note I have no difference of any kind between my scientific and religious beliefs, there's a big ? behind pretty much any topic that should be important to a self aware conscious being which we are (I hope) and perhaps will never be able to perfectly determine. I think the perceived schism between science and religion is actually a psychological one which is deeply personal and only actually exists in a large group dynamic. We however as a 6 billion strong group of psychological beings have social issues which are in and of themselves outside of a single humans possible experience, and it's learning to adapt the perception of an individual to the perceptions of a mass of individuals that this stark difference actually occurs.

Again, personally I think it's all a bunch of hulabaloo and the world seriously needs to learn to lighten up and live life without all these insanely concentrated efforts to change the thoughts of other peoples for often obscure personal reasons. I believe in the discovery of knowledge through experimentation and observation, somewhat contradictorally I'm also a solipsist philosophically speaking and a self proclaimed agnostic. I also consider myself a passive anarchist (meaning that I'm content to let the world go to hell all by itself)

Anyone that thinks that religion is on any less solid ground than modern science has absolutely no clue what they're talking about from the start. Anyone that associates religion with something that should exclude scientific understanding and basic common sense morality is just as equally clueless. We are all equally clueless, all the fighting is blood over spilled milk.

After re-reading I had to add this line just to say the above just about perfectly describes the way I generally think.
 
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Just wondering if there is anyone who truly believes that science and religion must be exclusive of each other, and why?
In my mind the reason is this:
Religion is based purely on faith and belief and is generally dogmatic.
Science, when done right, is based on the collection of data through experimentation/observation and the testing of a hypotheses.
I really have no idea what goes on in the mind of a religious "scientist".


Why do people who believe in creation believe that Darwin is absolutely wrong?
Because evolution conflicts with most religious texts.


Couldn't evolution be Gods way of creation?
In theory it could, except the bible clearly states that the sun and Earth were created within seven days and that man was there at the very beginning. No dinosaurs mentioned anywhere.
Now if you tossed traditional religion out the window, then yes, you could say that. Our expanding universe and space-time could simply exist on the surface of the foil of an exploding capacitor in "God's" final year project because there is no ETO in his realm.
 
To me, there is not necessarily any direct conflict between Science and Religion (capitalization intentional). There is, however, a huge contradiction between Science and Faith. Science relies on evidence, while religion unfortunately often relies upon faith, and faith repudiates evidence.

Science is not always hard fact, but its tenets are always testable and what we call scientific laws are phenomena for which no test has been constructed which can disprove them. That is to say, in science you may believe something, but if you can design an experiment which reliably disproves that belief, then the belief (whether the belief is in God or in a scientific law) must be wrong. In faith, however, if you have the same belief and observe the same results, then it is the *results* which must be taken as incorrect in order that the belief (and thus the faith) may be preserved.

Faith has the distinct advantage of always having the fallback position of "God did it", which not only can explain literally anything but is also completely untestable. The neat thing is that if you somehow designed a test which was able to conclusively prove the existence of a true God then the faith would suddenly become redundant, as God's existence would simply become a matter of scientific fact.

My point is that science is not necessarily incompatible with the existence of a God--but with no evidence and no testability, it is not scientifically defensible to maintain such a belief*. Given such evidence it would be unscientific to *not* believe in that God (but that would no longer be Faith; it would simply be believing the evidence).

* Then again, without scientific evidence proving that God *doesn't* exist, it's also scientifically indefensible to believe that there is no God. Disbelieving what humans have written down as the "Word of God" (in whatever religion) is totally defensible, however, as much of that is testable and can be proven to be false (see Genesis).


My $0.02 CDN anyway.

Torben
 
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Damn, Torben, that was good. You never cease to amaze me with your ability to paint with words.
 
I remember someone on another forum stating that science is a religion and so is atheism. I disagree with this, although science draws some parallels with religion i.e. it tries to explain the origins of the universe and life, it's what it does not do that makes this comparison fail. As mentioned about religion relies on faith alone, Science does not and religion is full of morel teachings and rules to follow as one lives their life, science has none.

Is atheism a religion? The reasoning is, that believing there is no god requires faith because it's unscientific and there is no way to prove there is no god.

Atheism has different forms there are those who are certain that there is no god and there are those who are more towards the agnostic end of the spectrum, the weak atheists, who believe there is no god because there's no proof but agree that lack of evidence doesn't mean there can't be a god; I fall into this category.

I think he was talking about the strong atheists who deny the possible existence of a god. I can see their point but I wouldn't consider atheism to be a religion because it lacks all other things found in all religions: teachings, rules as mentioned above. I would consider atheism to by a philosophical perspective but I would apply the same to some aspects of religion and possibly some fringe scientific theories.
 
I would say that the Universe is like poetry. Just what was the authors intent. It becomes the Job of Science to figure it out. "Seek and ye shall find, ask and it will be given unto you"

Example of the Alchemist, history say's they were charlatans. Maybe they were just burgeoning scientist. Lead and Gold are not far apart on the periodic table.

We can change Lead into Gold by manipulating the number of protons. Of course it would be useless because of the amount of energy required to convert it. Particle accelerators do this on a regular basis changing things from one form to another.

The Universe is our Alfa & Omega. Who designed it? Maybe it was something with no Beginning or Ending and is made of perfect intelligence.

That would be the best explanation of Mono theism.

Chaos is Dogma created by Man.

We call it Religion and if you explore it further it will transform into perfect Communism, a system of control.
 
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Hero999 said:
Communism is an atheist ideology to your last statement can't be right.

I said "perfect Communism" which cannot exist. Because people are not perfect.

Often people are confused when I say that. I say that Religion is a system of control not unlike Communism which strives to create balance. If were possible to do correctly with everyone doing as they are told it could be possible. But, only under the right leadership for it to work. The leader would have to be the Creator with perfect Love and in the end harmony could exist.

Communism has separated God. But it doesn't mean there is no hierarchy to lead the group or control the groups destiny. Something like fish in an ocean all moving at the same time but which fish move's first for the rest to follow.


Edit: Sometimes we limit our self's to terminology's. I call that Dogma. Which means you've created a box that only on thing can fit. When you remove the label and empty it's content's often you will find many things that can still be contained in the same space in the box.
 
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People are competitive which is why the human race has evolved so well.

In theory working together sounds nice but competition is required to provide a motive for improvement.

Communism removes the competitive forces which stimulate economic growth.
 
Here is something else to think about...


A super-being that is so powerful that they could create a universe would certainly not have any problem creating 'fake' dinosaurs or anything else
fake just to keep certain people from believing, ie those that are supposed to not be allowed to believe.
 
Here is something else to think about...
fake just to keep certain people from believing, ie those that are supposed to not be allowed to believe.

That's just cruel, I need a drink. LOL

**broken link removed**
 
That's what being agnostic is good for. Keeps the religions nuts off your back because you at least concede that there could be a god but since you can't ever know anyways there's really no reason to go on any further about it.
 
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