Debunking 911....

[daybrown]

is one of the reasons I expect crisis, economic panic, & civil unrest. Unlike those trying to debunk the moonshot or the Halocaust, the 911 crowd has significant numbers of women, starting with the widows and mothers of those who lost lives in the twin towers.

Those ladies dont match the usual wingnut profile. they have not long been in the business of posting rants trying to stir up all the asinine elements of the nation. There are other women who were, and/or still are, in government and/or the military who represent themselves as being in positions to know something about what was really going on in Sept of 2001.

None of these ladies are satisfied with the 911 report. And just like the mothers against drunk driving, they are not going to go away, or be slid off to the side like the debunkers of the moonshot or Halocaust. They do not engage in ad hominum nearly as often, and can far more often respond rationally to questions about what they think they know, rather than, as the other debunkers do, going off on another rant.

People are increasingly going on the net, and as here, finding out much more detail about what has been really going on, and the manipulations of the mass mind by TV is loosing its grip. And if there is an economic crisis, such as a collapse in the real estate market, the ability of the Powers That Now Be to control the agenda will be lost entirely.

All the women have asked for is a competent investigation of 911. The defenders of the 911 report say there is no evidence, but you cannot have *evidence* without a legal proceeding with supeonas that verify the identity of witnesses who testify under oath and penalty of perjury. So far, congress has resisted the calls for new hearings, distracting the public mind with a show trial on Iraq and expansion of entitlements... in the face of the calls by comptroller of the USA David M. Walker for their reduction.

There've been posts saying that rep Waxman may begin to hold hearings, not directly related to 911, but we all can see how witnesses can drag it off in that direction and there'll be no stopping it as the net gets behind it. Which will be another way to discredit the TV media. All this is extremely dangerous. 911 is closely linked to scams going on in Wall Street and the commodities markets, and as that boil gets lanced, a global sell off of the dollar would follow.

It aint upta me or you. All we can do is consider what the effects of the fall out would be in our own local area and those we care about. Whatever, we wont have much time to adapt to the changes.

 

[Roff]

OK, I'll bite.
Are you saying you think 9/11 was a conspiracy? And why do you specifically mention women? Are there no men who want an investigation?

 

[HarveyH42]

I don't understand. What Conspiracy? What investigation? Are you suggesting that our government knew about it in advance and could have prevented it? Was our government involved in planning with terrorists?

Suppose they were tipped off that an attack was being planned by terrorists. How would you decide if the threat is real, and worth shutting down all airports. How long would you disrupt air travel? Would the terrorist just wait until air travel is open again? Would you treat ever such 'tip' as fact? It's unfortunate, but don't think there was enough fore warning to have done anything.

There are always people unable to accept the facts. There are likely a large group of relatives that still believe their loved ones are still alive, that they somehow escaped.

 

[daybrown]

I am suggesting that women, both those who had loved ones die in 911, and those in government and the military, who most definately do NOT QUALIFY AS KOOKS, want the 911 question re-opened. There was a website posted of the questions which the widows and mothers of those who lost loved ones on 911. The questions do not contain a lotta kook theories. They do point out a number of logical inconsistancies in the official 911 report, and they also address questions which did not occur to anyone to ask during the original 911 hearings.

I dont claim to know what happened. I see posts on the net by people who represent themselves as being in a position to offer some explanation. I do not know. Anyone can represent themselves on the net any damn way they want. The ladies above know this, and want a legal proceeding so that all the kooks who are now stirring up all the trouble online will have to put up or shut up.

You say there are people who cant accept the facts. That seems reasonable. Now just who is it that getsta decide what the facts are? So far, most of what has been presented as facts comes from the media and the websites. These are NOT legal proceedings, so we do not really have *evidence*. Free speech means that they can say whatever they want.

Recently, a video clip of a BBC reporter was posted on Youtube and elsewhere, in which she talks about the collapse of WTC7. which the digital clock attached to the soundbyte shows is 20 minutes before the building fell. In fact, some versions point out the outline of WTC 7 still visible out the window behind the BBC reporters.

Now, was this all a scam put together by some hacker kooks? Or is the lady in the video really a BBC reporter? We need a congressional hearing to find out. If this is authentic, then she can be supoened and asked if the video fairly represents what she said at the time claimed.

There are scores of reports like this with video clips of one kind or other, which are vastly more persuasive than the rants about the moonshot or Halocaust. Both of those conspriacy theories dont have anywhere near the video evidence we've had and seen since 9/11/2001.

I am not here to debat the facts of 911 dude. I am here suggesting that there have been so many questions raised by so many people that do not fit the profile of kooks or emotionally distressed family memnbers that this issue is not going to go away without a new legal proceeding.

I would furthermore be in favor of the new lie detection techniques such as the FMRI, EEG, or even the high speed video applied to the automomic facial expressions outlined by Dr. Paul Ekman. Lying under oath requires more prefrontal lobe processing than telling the truth which only activates the more centrally located memory areas. Ekman, who began with primate studies, found that monkeys dont have enough prefrontal power to lie, but they have most of the same facial expressions as the hominids.

When confronted with a question, the truth is revealed by the *autonomic* response for 200 ms before it is painted over by the prefrontal lobes deciding what expression would be the most convincing. I have Dr. Ekman's book "Never be Lied to Again" and his CD that teaches you with video how to spot liars.

So, even from TV sometimes, the facial shot is close enough to reveal the liars, and with freeze frame during the hearings, we'd all be able to see just who is trying to bullschitt. Then, we can put this whole issue of 911 behind us.

Now, things mite go on as they are indefinately without ever getting resolution on this... until there is an economic crisis. Such as postulated by the real estate bubble and increasing bankruptcy rate. At that point, people will want scape goats, and the pressure to expose 911 as deliberate action by some in the USA will be unstoppable.

There is a lot of evidence to show that the stock and commodity markets have been manipulated, stealing money from middle class IRA and 401k, and that furthermore the destruction of WTC 7, which was never hit by a plane, was part of an effort to hide the evidence of massive fraud. I dont claim to know, but you can see that the mass of middle class people who think they have been ripped off, especially if they now have real estate losses , will think that is the case, and want 911 reopened, thinking that then they'll have the evidence to sue Wall Street for damages.

Read Machiavelli. Republics do fine as long as the pie is getting bigger. Soon as there is a loss of position by the masses, they will eagarly accept a tyrant to go in and clean house, who will seize the assets of the rich to balance the books. Blaming Bush & Wall Street for 911 will provide the pretext to do that.

I dont claim that its a good idea. I'm just the messenger boy. But what with the abuse of power and the patriot act, large numbers already think the bill of rights is history, and that a tyrant would be able to protect the interests of the lower classes from the exploitation of the aristocracy, whereas the current system, which looks like it has been corrupted, can not.

"I think I mite like to move to Russia, where they take their tyranny straight up, undiluted with the waters of hypocrisy." A. Lincoln. Case in point. Law enforcement asked to search my house, saying that the search warrant was on the way. I let them. When it arrived, it had the wrong name and the wrong address. No matter. by now, my name, social security number, etc, had all been entered into databases of the legal sysstem,. and as a result, from 1968 to 1998 my property was searched *SEVEN* times.

The busted me for the drugs guests dropped on the floor at a halloween party. The judge threw that case out. The other six times they found *nothing*. So- who is it that getsta decide when search and seizure is unreasonable?

As Gibbon commented, the outward forms ot the republic were maintained, but the substance was gutted.
As Machiavelli says, when the masses of a republic see this, its either anarchy or tyranny. your choice.

 

[daybrown]

Who getsta decide what the facts are without a legal proceeding with witnesses under oath and penalty of perfjury? Lets see how the 'facts' being presented on the net in support of the conspiracy theorists hold up.

 

[dknguyen]

So...you're saying that "sane" people , for lack of a better term, (as well as conspiracy theorists) want the 9/11 investigation reopened?

Was that your point?

 

[Roff]

So...you're saying that "sane" people , for lack of a better term, (as well as conspiracy theorists) want the 9/11 investigation reopened?

Was that your point?

Dk, I like your implication about conspiracy theorists.

 

[dknguyen]

Conspiracy theorists can only call themselves that until the government is after them- then they are no longer theorists.

 

[HarveyH42]

I still don't see the point of further investigation. Many of the surrounding buildings were destroyed when the WTC towers fell. Terrorist crashing jetliners into huge buildings isn't really something people think about when drawing up plans.

The time when building 7 fell? It took the twin towers hit by the planes a while to fall, are you saying building 7 came down before?

It's a tragic, but these people are just trying to find more in it, then exists.

 

[AllVol]

No matter. by now, my name, social security number, etc, had all been entered into databases of the legal sysstem,. and as a result, from 1968 to 1998 my property was searched *SEVEN* times.

The busted me for the drugs guests dropped on the floor at a halloween party. The judge threw that case out. The other six times they found *nothing*. So- who is it that getsta decide when search and seizure is unreasonable?

"'Tis the ox in the ditch that bawls loudest"
-Anon

 

[cyb0rg777]

Just my opinion. Politics should not be discussed here. The internet is full of places to discuss politics. I know this is general forum but it is a divisive issue .That's the best way to start to get along is just to have some places where we talk about something else.

 

[Optikon]

I am suggesting that women, both those who had loved ones die in 911, and those in government and the military, who most definately do NOT QUALIFY AS KOOKS, want the 911 question re-opened. There was a website posted of the questions which the widows and mothers of those who lost loved ones on 911. The questions do not contain a lotta kook theories. They do point out a number of logical inconsistancies in the official 911 report, and they also address questions which did not occur to anyone to ask during the original 911 hearings.

I dont claim to know what happened. I see posts on the net by people who represent themselves as being in a position to offer some explanation. I do not know. Anyone can represent themselves on the net any damn way they want. The ladies above know this, and want a legal proceeding so that all the kooks who are now stirring up all the trouble online will have to put up or shut up.

You say there are people who cant accept the facts. That seems reasonable. Now just who is it that getsta decide what the facts are? So far, most of what has been presented as facts comes from the media and the websites. These are NOT legal proceedings, so we do not really have *evidence*. Free speech means that they can say whatever they want.

Recently, a video clip of a BBC reporter was posted on Youtube and elsewhere, in which she talks about the collapse of WTC7. which the digital clock attached to the soundbyte shows is 20 minutes before the building fell. In fact, some versions point out the outline of WTC 7 still visible out the window behind the BBC reporters.

Now, was this all a scam put together by some hacker kooks? Or is the lady in the video really a BBC reporter? We need a congressional hearing to find out. If this is authentic, then she can be supoened and asked if the video fairly represents what she said at the time claimed.

There are scores of reports like this with video clips of one kind or other, which are vastly more persuasive than the rants about the moonshot or Halocaust. Both of those conspriacy theories dont have anywhere near the video evidence we've had and seen since 9/11/2001.

I am not here to debat the facts of 911 dude. I am here suggesting that there have been so many questions raised by so many people that do not fit the profile of kooks or emotionally distressed family memnbers that this issue is not going to go away without a new legal proceeding.

I would furthermore be in favor of the new lie detection techniques such as the FMRI, EEG, or even the high speed video applied to the automomic facial expressions outlined by Dr. Paul Ekman. Lying under oath requires more prefrontal lobe processing than telling the truth which only activates the more centrally located memory areas. Ekman, who began with primate studies, found that monkeys dont have enough prefrontal power to lie, but they have most of the same facial expressions as the hominids.

When confronted with a question, the truth is revealed by the *autonomic* response for 200 ms before it is painted over by the prefrontal lobes deciding what expression would be the most convincing. I have Dr. Ekman's book "Never be Lied to Again" and his CD that teaches you with video how to spot liars.

So, even from TV sometimes, the facial shot is close enough to reveal the liars, and with freeze frame during the hearings, we'd all be able to see just who is trying to bullschitt. Then, we can put this whole issue of 911 behind us.

Now, things mite go on as they are indefinately without ever getting resolution on this... until there is an economic crisis. Such as postulated by the real estate bubble and increasing bankruptcy rate. At that point, people will want scape goats, and the pressure to expose 911 as deliberate action by some in the USA will be unstoppable.

There is a lot of evidence to show that the stock and commodity markets have been manipulated, stealing money from middle class IRA and 401k, and that furthermore the destruction of WTC 7, which was never hit by a plane, was part of an effort to hide the evidence of massive fraud. I dont claim to know, but you can see that the mass of middle class people who think they have been ripped off, especially if they now have real estate losses , will think that is the case, and want 911 reopened, thinking that then they'll have the evidence to sue Wall Street for damages.

Read Machiavelli. Republics do fine as long as the pie is getting bigger. Soon as there is a loss of position by the masses, they will eagarly accept a tyrant to go in and clean house, who will seize the assets of the rich to balance the books. Blaming Bush & Wall Street for 911 will provide the pretext to do that.

I dont claim that its a good idea. I'm just the messenger boy. But what with the abuse of power and the patriot act, large numbers already think the bill of rights is history, and that a tyrant would be able to protect the interests of the lower classes from the exploitation of the aristocracy, whereas the current system, which looks like it has been corrupted, can not.

"I think I mite like to move to Russia, where they take their tyranny straight up, undiluted with the waters of hypocrisy." A. Lincoln. Case in point. Law enforcement asked to search my house, saying that the search warrant was on the way. I let them. When it arrived, it had the wrong name and the wrong address. No matter. by now, my name, social security number, etc, had all been entered into databases of the legal sysstem,. and as a result, from 1968 to 1998 my property was searched *SEVEN* times.

The busted me for the drugs guests dropped on the floor at a halloween party. The judge threw that case out. The other six times they found *nothing*. So- who is it that getsta decide when search and seizure is unreasonable?

As Gibbon commented, the outward forms ot the republic were maintained, but the substance was gutted.
As Machiavelli says, when the masses of a republic see this, its either anarchy or tyranny. your choice.

Yawn... there is enough of this drivel on the web.. the truth is, the truth will never be fully known by neither the sane people nor the theorists.

 

[daybrown]

911 Debunking...

You misrepresent my position. I am not arguing the facts of 911.
I am suggesting, that if there is econimic crisis, such as now worries people in real estate, that there will many looking for scapegoats.

There has been manifest fraud on Wall Street and the commodities markets, and accusations that WTC 7 was destroyed because of all the computers in particular offices in that building. I really do not know. I am not in real estate as a business.

Whatever I think happened on 911 does not matter. What millions of Americans, who've had severe economic loss because of the corruption in government and the financial sector think does matter. They will loose whatever faith they have in the mass media. Increasing numbers, not just of young people, now rely on the net, which is delivering far more detailed reports on issues, and in ascii like this, its gonzo easier to parse it out line by line to see if it makes sense.

when you do that to the transcripts from the media on 911, there's a lot that dont add up. Those who have had their lifestyles disrupted will see this with a clarity that does not now permeate the American group think. If you think you know what went on with 911, you have not read about the studies on group think or considered their application in mass media.

I do not claim to know what happened on 911; what I do know is how sheeple who've been doscile will very suddenly become alert when their routines are disturbed. Having your house foreclosed will do that. Whereas before, such as after the Rodney King thing, the local media reports on that were shut down, now, with the interenet, that's no longer possible, and things can spin out of control really fast.

I would urge congress to begin a new 911 investigation. It could do so slowly, with careful deliberation and cross examination of the witnesses under oath to parse out in detail what is said and not said. This kind of process can go on for months, and if there is an economic crisis in the meantime over the housing market, sheeple will be patient believing it is all being looked into.

I have written my senators and congressman aobut this. But have no feedback which suggests that any of what I had to say was read by anyone. Typical mandarin mind. Without an active congressional investigation, demagogues could arise on the net, and they will just start dragging the bastards out to be shot. It aint upta me. History shows us *repeatedly* that the mandarins never know there is a problem until the bricks in the palace wall start flying over it.

 

[HarveyH42]

Investigate what? Give exact details of what doesn't add up. You type a lot of words, but only hint at, or give generalities. No specifics, no details.

The facts: Planes crashed, buildings fell, people died senselessly...

Questions: Did the U.S. government know specific details of the attack before hand, but did nothing to warn or prevent this tragic event.

 

[daybrown]

911 Debunking...

wtf? you dont get it?
One more time. Read up on Group think. You mite wanna read the original political applications posted by Machiavelli as well.

Believe me friend, it dont matter what you or I think. Machiavelli would understand perfectly. It all depends on whether the economic situation can be handled competently. Given the example of Katrina, there's room for doubt.

If there are massive job losses following the housing bubble collapse (there are already reports that illegals have lost construciton jobs and are going back to Mexico), there will be masses of sheeple looking for scape goats. AT the top of the list is the Bush administration and the manifest corruption on Wall Street personalized in the dubious activities of Silverstein... who has yet to collect from some insurers who think there's something fishy.

My opinion on this dont matter, but they can smell blood in the water. So, what they will do, is take control of some national media and begin to present the case that 911 was cooked up to justify the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan because Fox,. CNN, MSNBC, and the rest of them all knew it'd provide really juicy video of schit blowing up, and rescue their news divisions with dynamite ratings. I really dont know. But if there have been massive economic disruption of the lives of the middle class, they will eat it up.

It was group think by the corporate media that told people what to believe about 911, which was good for their near term bottom line, and now that the effort to take control of Mid East oil has not been nearly as rewarding and the prices of gas are headed up again, the corporate media will use group think again to blame the Bush administration for deceiving them if the profits of the corporate media collapse.

The Almighty Dollar always decides what the truth is.

 

[daybrown]

911 Debunking...

Just my opinion. Politics should not be discussed here. The internet is full of places to discuss politics. I know this is general forum but it is a divisive issue .That's the best way to start to get along is just to have some places where we talk about something else.

I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about mass psychology and the applications of the findings in Group Think. Surf for "group think", and get an eyeful of the most asinine outrageous bullschitt that sheeple will believe when they think that is the group consensus.

When that consensus changes, one of the common political effects is *revolution*. I am not talking about our opinions here. I think one of the effects of group think when they see 911 mentioned, is the knee jerk, group think at work, assuming that I am going to argue for one scenario or another.

Helloooo? No, that is not where I'm coming from. If the economy tanks because of high oil prices, which in large part are due to the failure by the Bush administration to gain control of the Iraqi production, then the whole political dynamic will change.

You may loose your job. By the same token radical changes in the political/economic situation will open up new career paths. The Chinese glyph for "danger" includes that of "opportunity". I already see some of it going on in my neck of Ozark woods. Lotsa rich guys moving in and building starter castles. They will want surveillance systems. Its one thing if you are going do that for a 1/4 acre suburban lot, and quite another for the 40 acre portion his villa sits on. Diamond, in his latest book "Colllapse" mentions the same sort of thing going on in the Bitterroot valley of Montana.

Both here, and there, the economic impact is far greater than the traditional timber & cattle businesses. There are lotsa places where new opportunities will open up for those who are able to understand what the group think of the American sheeple is, and see the signs of change. Wildblue.com just put up another satellite, and there will be a lot more jobs for guys installing new satellite communications systems out in the boonies. If there is economic distress in the cities, this will *really* take off.

The rich have their own forms of group think.

 

[HarveyH42]

I guess I'm not much of an alternative-thinker. So, what did the U.S. government do with the Nikola Tesla Death-Ray plans, that mysteriously disappeared after his death?

 

[Roff]

I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about mass psychology and the applications of the findings in Group Think. Surf for "group think", and get an eyeful of the most asinine outrageous bullschitt that sheeple will believe when they think that is the group consensus.

When that consensus changes, one of the common political effects is *revolution*. I am not talking about our opinions here. I think one of the effects of group think when they see 911 mentioned, is the knee jerk, group think at work, assuming that I am going to argue for one scenario or another.

Helloooo? No, that is not where I'm coming from. If the economy tanks because of high oil prices, which in large part are due to the failure by the Bush administration to gain control of the Iraqi production, then the whole political dynamic will change.

You may loose your job. By the same token radical changes in the political/economic situation will open up new career paths. The Chinese glyph for "danger" includes that of "opportunity". I already see some of it going on in my neck of Ozark woods. Lotsa rich guys moving in and building starter castles. They will want surveillance systems. Its one thing if you are going do that for a 1/4 acre suburban lot, and quite another for the 40 acre portion his villa sits on. Diamond, in his latest book "Colllapse" mentions the same sort of thing going on in the Bitterroot valley of Montana.

Both here, and there, the economic impact is far greater than the traditional timber & cattle businesses. There are lotsa places where new opportunities will open up for those who are able to understand what the group think of the American sheeple is, and see the signs of change. Wildblue.com just put up another satellite, and there will be a lot more jobs for guys installing new satellite communications systems out in the boonies. If there is economic distress in the cities, this will *really* take off.

The rich have their own forms of group think.

A lot of those rich guys needing security systems will not be rich if the economy tanks.
Satellite broadcasting may not be economically viable if the economy tanks. No advertising = no satellite broadcasting.
Rum is the last thing I will buy if the economy tanks. Of course, I can count all the bottles of rum I have bought in my 66 years on one hand.
Daybrown, I'm not trying to put you down. You are right in thinking that we should be prepared for the worst. Unfortunately, most of the population does not have the resources or the will or the foresight to do it. Much of my retirement money is in investments that will suffer if the economy tanks. If it does, I'll cope, as will almost everyone else.
Regarding 9/11, I'm a firm believer in the principle of Occam's Razor. I find it easy to believe that there are millions of people out there who want to kill us. I find it much harder to imagine that a government conspiracy could have been planned, pulled off, and kept secret for over 5 years. I also marvel at the fact that those who subscribe to the government conspiracy theory are generally the same ones who think G. W. Bush and his staff are among the biggest idiots on the face of the earth. I see no point in wasting Congress' time and our money on another investigation. I feel for the survivors of the victims of 9/11, but I believe those who see something even more sinister than Muslim extremists feel powerless, and are looking for someone to blame that they can actually punish.
I have a good friend with a survivalist mentality who has been predicting the collapse of the economy and civilization as we know it for at least 20 years. He still sends me copies of a doom-and-gloom newsletter which I think he pays good money for. If I had been taking this newsletter's advice, I would have had my money hidden under my mattress, instead of investing some of it as I have done, and profiting quite nicely.
The economy may go down the tubes, but I'm an optimist (relative to some, anyway), and I'm betting that it won't.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

This might be **** Chat, but it's not for this load of rubbish - if you want politics go elsewhere!.

Thread closed!.

Moderator.