Home Hydrogen Generator

if hydrogen is available, Ford and BMW will make you a hydrogen powered vehicle.

...and, what if....

wmmullaney said:

But what if there's no wind? We get wind every 3-4 days, what if it's overcast?

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The problem with the "what if game" is that you can come up with any scenarios you want. But, what if the wind does blow and if the clouds do clear and what if a nuclear bomb goes off just close enough to your home that you get the heat energy without the radiation...and so on (ad infinitum).

For the most part, sun shines, wind blows and waves crash...and the tides come in and go out and water falls from the sky and rushes to the sea and the magma under the earth will still be hot long after humans have run their course here on Earth. The question is: Will we do both the easy giant and not so easy baby steps to try to extract as much of that energy as we can with the minimum impact on the Earth or will we throw up our hands in frustration that baby steps are hard and just continue drilling for oil and digging for coal and cutting down forests and collecting cow farts for fossil/bio-fuel energy sources?

I know this isn't exactly the technical discussion of the topic but, I beleive it is the precursor to the technical thinking that will be needed to make the tough energy sources viable.

What are the chances of a nuclear bomb blowing up somewhere near my house? About 1 to 100,000,000. And the wind 1 to 4. The sun does shine most of the time, but when it doesn't????

Playing the odds

wmmullaney said:

What are the chances of a nuclear bomb blowing up somewhere near my house? About 1 to 100,000,000. And the wind 1 to 4. The sun does shine most of the time, but when it doesn't????

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When they don't...they don't. You design the system to take as full advantage of what's the most available. For example, building a solar plant in a cave just because the land is cheap is no bargain. If a system has a net positive output (over time) and if you build a LOT of them, I think you could reap appreciable power. The power is there and 99.999999 is passing by with no attempt to utilize it beyond what nature uses it for. I think it's more a mode of thinking than a "real" problem that more aggressive measures are not being taken.

Regarding the chances of a "harmless" nuclear explosion near your home. Well, the odds are still better than Jessica Simpson having an intelligent thought (so, how come she has more money than I do?...........Oh, yeah, those).

How much hydrogen can you get from a solar powered splitter?

Or just for a test, a 9v battery?

wmmullaney said:

How much hydrogen can you get from a solar powered splitter?

Or just for a test, a 9v battery?

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Generating hydrogen is just a way of storing the solar energy, and not a very efficient one, the actual amount obviously depends on the output power from the solar panel - but you would be talking massive panels, in very sunny parts of the world, to get a useable amount.

wmmullaney said:

How much hydrogen can you get from a solar powered splitter?

Or just for a test, a 9v battery?

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First, you need to decide whether you want the answer as determined by conventional chemistry or by methods used by those who believe in over-unity production, mystical properties of "brown gas," etc.

The following calculation is based on conventional chemistry. For more detail, see these links (among hundreds):

**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**

For those who are not too picky and don't want to get wound up in what are basically unit conversions, consider the following equations:

H2O = H2 + ½O2 Eo = 1.229 V ; and
2H+ +2e- = H2


To get one molecule of hydrogen, H2, from 2H+ you have to provide 2 electrons.

A mole of hydrogen occupies 22.4 L at STP (approximately 29.92 inches of Hg at 32° F ) and contains 6.02X10E23 molecules. Thus, a mole of H2 requires 12.04X10E23 electrons to produce.

Doing the math, production of 1L of hydrogen requires 5.4X10E22 electrons or approximately 8,700 coulombs.

Assume your 9V battery is rated for 500 mAH ( I am too lazy to look up a real value). An hour is 3600 seconds. A current of 0.5 A for 3600 seconds is 1800 coulombs.

Thus, your 1800-coulomb-capacity battery will produce a maximum of 200 mL of hydrogen gas at STP. Efficiency is probably a lot less than 100%, so individual results may vary.

If you are more comfortable with electrical nomenclature, the Faraday is 96,489 coulombs per mole. Since production of H2 reuires 2e per mole of gas, then 192,978 coulombs are required per mole of gas. At STP, a mole is 22.4 L (same as above), so a liter will require 8600 coulombs. The difference is due to rounding.

The simple answer: A 9-V non-rechargeable battery is an expensive way to produce just a little hydrogen.

John

edit: better defined which battery type

Very Nice Analysis

jpanhalt said:

The following calculation is based on conventional chemistry. For more detail, see these links (among hundreds):

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That's a very impressive disertation, John. Working down through your numbers I get the imopression that it's not that it's not "do-able" it's whether it's practically do-able. Of course nobody says it's easy or it would already commonly be done. The big problem is that you can't bypass the physics of the conversion and thus must concentrate on the process itself (by improving the efficiency and by massive parallel processing with a companion collecting network), In that context, can it ever be practical? I don't know but, THAT was the question I asked in my original post on this topic.

The numbers you cite suggest that it's sort of on the edge of practicality but, at the present state of the art, probably still on the "not practical" side.

crashsite said:

The big problem is that you can't bypass the physics of the conversion and thus must concentrate on the process itself (by improving the efficiency and by massive parallel processing with a companion collecting network), In that context, can it ever be practical?

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Yeah those pesky physics keep presenting nothing but problems...

Practical for what?? Running an internal combustion engine, no. A fuel cell, IF you could find a decent way to store many pounds of hydrogen and have a cheap, plentiful source of electricity or some exotic way of generating H2 like algae, sure it could be practical.

Electrolysis becomes electrically more efficient at high temps, where it absorbs some of the heat energy cooling the solution down so it requires more high-temperature heat and high temp heat isn't often free. There's certainly a lot on making better electrolytic cells. They usually use a very alkaline solution too. But, its electrical power requirements are still quite high.

Neener Neener Oil Producers

Oznog said:

Yeah those pesky physics keep presenting nothing but problems...

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There is another factor besides the physics and "mechanics" of it all. While I realize it's very politically incorrect to say, there is a satisfaction component of slapping the Arabs and Venezuelans (did I mangle the spelling on that or what?) in the face and telling them where they can put their oil. It's certainly not uncommon for people to spend a lot extra for spite (a lot of expensive windshield replacements are due to baseball bats and girl/boy friend tiffs). Maybe it's time we (Americans and others) get a bit upity about it and make a bigger alternative energy push. We may even get a pleasant surprise (like some companies that have been forced to put scrubbers on their smokestacks and discovered that they had a "gold mine" of recovered materials).

Well, I suppose this topic has pretty much been beat to death, eh?

Nigel Goodwin said:

As I understand it, certainly in the UK, you're not allowed to use human waste as fertiliser - although I don't see as there's any more biological risk than anything else?.

In a closed environment (such as a long distance space craft) you obviously would have to recycle the human waste products.

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!
I've seen it spread on ground here in N Ireland, complete with condoms and sanitary waste. I believe it is regularly spread as fertiliser here!

The main problem with using relatively untreated human waste as fertilizer is infectious diseases. Appropriate food preparation helps, but doesn't entirely eliminate the risk. Viruses, parasites, and bacteria are the main etiologic agents of concern. We had a major outbreak of hepatitis from green onions at a popular Mexican restaurant a few years ago. They were imported from an area that used human waste as fertilizer. Parasites (e.g., cryptosporidium, etc.) can also be a problem if the food is under cooked or not properly cleaned. And of course, you have probably heard of cholera, E. coli O157; H7, typhoid fever, and others.

One species’ pathogens are often less infectious for other species than for its own species. What you don't want to do is create a cycle of infection in the same species. It is better to use cow dung for human food crops unless there is good control of the processing of the human waste. However, the purveyors of s__t may not pay much attention to regulations.

In spacecraft, there is much better control of the environment, the occupants, vaccinations, sanitation protocols, etc. John

jpanhalt said:

However, the purveyors of s__t may not pay much attention to regulations.

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Having seen the TV show lineup for this season, I'd have to conclude that you are right.

Hi,

I was reading the posts very closely to follow what is being said and done
and I have a few ideas,

1. please dont criticise others for being ignorant, we might be losing a great idea just because we are inhibited by a thinking which suits us.

2. let New ideas come forward they may or may not seem good at the moment
but at least give them a chance.

3. we should not rely and insist on others mistakes, instead just bring forth what you know and let others speak their own mind.

there is a long list of what to do and what not to do in Research Work. but let us start with these three and wait and watch the results.

Fahim Baig
Kinetics Automation
Pakistan.
fahimbaig2@gmail.com

Please follow your own advice and share your ideas.

John

Left Handed Mice...

Insider said:

Hi,

I was reading the posts very closely to follow what is being said and done
and I have a few ideas,

1. please dont criticise others for being ignorant, we might be losing a great idea just because we are inhibited by a thinking which suits us.

2. let New ideas come forward they may or may not seem good at the moment
but at least give them a chance.

3. we should not rely and insist on others mistakes, instead just bring forth what you know and let others speak their own mind.

there is a long list of what to do and what not to do in Research Work. but let us start with these three and wait and watch the results.

Fahim Baig
Kinetics Automation
Pakistan.
fahimbaig2@gmail.com

Click to expand...

I don't think ideas are really "critisized" here too much so long as they have some validity and are presented with at least some technical feasability. That's not to say that those ideas will not be critically examined and debated and that's, as Martha Stewart sez..., "a good thing".

What does get critisized are the things that 1) don't have much scientific validity (perpetual motion, over unity systems, anti-gravity devices, time machines...and, their worldly counterparts...quack devices for improving auto fuel mileage, for example...AND 2) when they are presented without any realistic way to attain them or worse, as conspiracy theories of why undefined powers, for reasons only known to the conspiracy theorists (and never divulged), endeavor to suppress them.

This thread is a good example. The home hydrogen generator WILL work and, furthermore it's simple to do. But, that doesn't stop the debate about whether it can be made practical. I believe that with the right attitudes and diligence it can. Others disagree.

So, I would say that the onus or burden is first placed on the poster to ensure that their presentation isn't on the obvious nut fringe and then they can reasonably expect it to be taken seriously enough to not be rejected out of hand.

Now, let me tell you about my left-handed mouse trap that catches only left handed mice by powers invoked in the book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament...