Hydrogen the worlds best criminal.

gophert said:

Please note that there is a viable hydrogen fuel cell used by the original Honda Clarity (not the new plug-in electric Clarity) and the new company supplying heavy trucks - Nikola. Nikola, believe it or not, is filing lawsuit with Tesla who they claim has poached a key engineer who subsequently supplied Tesla with design features that were critical for the design of an electric "tractor" for a tractor-trailer rig.
https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix...a-have-a-chance-in-its-2-billion-lawsuit.html


And, a busy week for Nikola,
Nikola signed a contract with Anheuser Busch to sell 800 hydrogen fuel cell trucks to deliver beer.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/03/technology/anheuser-busch-nikola-trucks/index.html

Also, the old calculations on hydrogen storage in vehicles were mostly done with steel pressure vessels. The new carbon fiber pressure vessels are significantly lighter and can hold about the same amount of hydrogen.

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My problem with them is mainly around the need for platinum catalysts or other exotics, i feel there is a place for them somewhere but honestly i think alot more money and research needs putting into them. I cant remember the figures given last week, but payback periods are horrible, but you then have to way up the benefit of them and the green side, so its really difficult. Bio Gas is much simpler to build a case for at the moment, but i would love to see this technology get some real funding and research.

Also i saw Scania trucks at the show last week, one was dual fuel with Methane and diesel (waitrose are using them), the other one was hydrogen cell based but Scania were pretty tight lipped on the details of the cell, so maybe progress is being made. I really wanted to see the cell, but you couldnt get near that truck, so maybe....... if they do have a working solution that stacks up business wise then its applications are immense

The other technology i couldnt get near was some kind of new insulation material, no idea what its made of but the figures for its efficiency are jaw dropping, plus its been verified by several bodies and universities, very very thin but outstanding heat retention and flexibility. No information other than a 10 min talk on it giving out its official figures, i did stick my hand up and ask how much. I just got fudge as an answer, we will know soon enough as apparently its going to be launched later in the year.

gophert, i still havnt got in to grab my mail, i had forgotten its a bank holiday weekend, so wings are a bit clipped , hence the site behind schedule as well lol

Little Ghostman said:

LOL at the recent conference there was a debate on this..... I am an offender for this at times depending on the context, also chemists and physicists disagree on some levels with it. Some will give the atom splitting as an example, so i try and fudge over the detail and prefer to simply it as an energy source , yes a cop out where i can

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No disagreements at all, it's all electromagnetics with electrons as the roadbed in good conductors.
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electri...ter-science/6-630-electromagnetics-fall-2006/

nsaspook said:

No disagreements at all, it's all electromagnetics with electrons as the roadbed in good conductors.
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electri...ter-science/6-630-electromagnetics-fall-2006/

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Trust me there was plenty with opposing views there! I left as it was getting interesting, i dont drink so as it got to around 10pm i went upto the hotel room, it was just getting into the swing of it when i left .

This year was year of the crackpot, some really way off ideas being thrown around (nothing to do with hydrogen), mention RHI grants and its astonishing what comes out the cracks in the floor.

Little Ghostman said:

platinum catalysts or other exotics

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Don't fool yourself. There is some exotic with nearly every alternative energy device and many energy-saving devices as well as traditional energy system.
The Lithium itself and cobalt anodes used in lithium batteries.
Neodymium permanent magnets in transmission-less wind turbines.
LEDs have indium and gallium (even more expensive is the trimethylindium purified to six 9s or better (pyrophoric solid) and shipped in 400 gram lots to world-scale factories (sometimes just a few of them in a single 20'shipping container).
Internal combustion engines likely have more value than a fuel cell (lanthide metals, rhodium, platinum, palladium, brew)

Fuel cells have fairly thin foils, platinum plated stainless steel and other tricks to minimize the amount of "exotic" needed for a stack of plates. Great manufacturing tricks to make the plate with high surface area flow patterns in these metals.

Little Ghostman said:

This year was year of the crackpot, some really way off ideas being thrown around (nothing to do with hydrogen), mention RHI grants and its astonishing what comes out the cracks in the floor.

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Welcome to the reality of research and politics. The AGW/CC sect has been playing that fake science for grant money game for decades now too where too much of the good science is tainted with bad poltical agenda intent and blind idealistic followings that will not look at anything that does not agree with their goals beliefs.

Toss enough money out there and some research scientist (or somebody claiming to be one) will sell out and find exactly what you want them t tell you even if they have to bold face lie to do it. Money makes the fiddler play and right now too many in the STEM fields will dance themselves to death to get it.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...ke-science-journals-worldwide-researchers-say

https://theconversation.com/were-climate-researchers-and-our-work-was-turned-into-fake-news-89999

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...sed-of-hiding-rise-in-fake-research-0lpdz39wz

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-journals-will-publish-fake-science-for-a-fee

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-researchers-rsquo-work-is-turned-into-fake-news/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101115210944.htm

**broken link removed**

https://researchguides.library.wisc.edu/c.php?g=640444&p=4485002

No matter the field of study the end of it getting the most politically motivated research money seems to always find exactly what said research money told them to find even if the have to lie to do it regardless of which team they are playing for.

If somebody wants to find evidence of unicorns in my yard by god if they throw enough money out there somebody's going to find evidence they were there and they carey great significance and influence in something else too.

Take it far enough and get enough followers of unicorn theory and it can go full blown 'Emperor has no clothes' on the findings too where everyone just knows they are real because everybody who thinks they are anybody can see proof of it everywhere.

These guys were not after grant ,oney, they know they dont stand a chance. But when you get talks on changes to the RHI system like this year, the room fills up with them. Thats kind of what makes it so funny, this year the RHI scheme changed to include Bio Gas and some other stuff was altered, but the room was filled with HHO guys etc who have nothing to do with Bio gas or the recent changes.

My second year attending the conference, its been going 8 years now and each year it doubles in size. Its actually starting to get really useful, being asked to speak this year was an honor and meant i didnt have to buy a ticket!! (not cheap). Its a good place to meet people in the industry, on the whole its a bit like fight club! really hard to find out much about people who are doing things within the industry. What surprised me was a talk about availability of bio gas to purchase at petrol stations etc.

Last year in the UK there were 32 places you could get Bio Methane along side normal petrol pumps, this year there is already 132. Not a huge amount but growing, also it looks like people are picking it over LPG, what it really need is to have some the stupid fossil fuel tax dropped from it, that might also encourage the ethanol guys to use ethanol mixed petrol. At the moment the tax situation means there is no case to make ethanol for fuel.

We get around the Tax for bio diesel by staying just under the kick in limits, or we would sell it as heating fuel which attracts 11p tax per ltr instead of 81p per ltr for car fuel, all the same stuff but a big hike in cost.

Still waiting for an apology.

gophert said:

Don't fool yourself. There is some exotic with nearly every alternative energy device and many energy-saving devices as well as traditional energy system.
The Lithium itself and cobalt anodes used in lithium batteries.
Neodymium permanent magnets in transmission-less wind turbines.
LEDs have indium and gallium (even more expensive is the trimethylindium purified to six 9s or better (pyrophoric solid) and shipped in 400 gram lots to world-scale factories (sometimes just a few of them in a single 20'shipping container).
Internal combustion engines likely have more value than a fuel cell (lanthide metals, rhodium, platinum, palladium, brew)

Fuel cells have fairly thin foils, platinum plated stainless steel and other tricks to minimize the amount of "exotic" needed for a stack of plates. Great manufacturing tricks to make the plate with high surface area flow patterns in these metals.

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I refuse to discuss the merits or not of Hydrogen, unless you react it with CO2 then it would be like the fish and chip guy telling you how much better burgers were for you . More seriously i am sure its got a place, but it is very under funded and progress is slow (at least in the UK), as a technology its extremely cool!

Little Ghostman said:

Thats kind of what makes it so funny, this year the RHI scheme changed to include Bio Gas and some other stuff was altered, but the room was filled with HHO guys etc who have nothing to do with Bio gas or the recent changes.

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I would be curious to see what actual scientifically validatable findings the HHO guys have on their plates now. I played with the concept for a bit a long time ago and came to the theory that those who think it works may have stumbled onto an accidental side effect that just happens to give a measurable fuel economy gain that works similar to how tweaking a emissions complaint engines sensor signals to fool the computer into running the engine in its most fuel efficient mode rather than supposed cleanest burning mode works.

Contrary to popular thought best emissions numbers do not equate to most efficient usage of fuel by a huge margin. Over the years they have gotten the two closer but still with too many engines on the road those two tuning modes are worlds apart.

Little Ghostman said:

Last year in the UK there were 32 places you could get Bio Methane along side normal petrol pumps, this year there is already 132. Not a huge amount but growing, also it looks like people are picking it over LPG, what it really need is to have some the stupid fossil fuel tax dropped from it, that might also encourage the ethanol guys to use ethanol mixed petrol. At the moment the tax situation means there is no case to make ethanol for fuel.

We get around the Tax for bio diesel by staying just under the kick in limits, or we would sell it as heating fuel which attracts 11p tax per ltr instead of 81p per ltr for car fuel, all the same stuff but a big hike in cost.

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LP has always been hit or miss on popularity here as well but the overall infrastructure is very much in place to use it anywhere if you know where to look when you need to fill up.

Those like me who know how it works both on the mechanical end and the infrastructure end like it but for that majority it's just not that appealing due to the minor added inconveniences in the fueling and where it can be done end since they do not catch the massive cost savings that goes with it which in these parts tends to run around 2 - 3:1 in LP favor depending on the season, seller and the local common market gasoline prices.

There was a channel (no idea if it still exists) where a guy had a auto shop forensic lab type setup, he was retired but offered $65,000 to anyone who could bring a working HHO car into the shop and prove it gave 1MPG boost to the cars economy, in the 5 years i subscribed he tested and filmed 200 odd cars, not one got the money.

Then a while back pommie mentioned something on here, i had a journal designed at chemistry education, it had a HDD demo in it to split water using a certain type of plate from very OLD HDD's. The down sides where it was only one side of one plate oper HDD that had the right coating, and the HHO ce3ll had to be separated with a salt bridge or PEM.

On the anode side you put 2M Sodium Hydroxide and on the Cathode cell side you use nearly pure water. The efficiency of Hydrogen goes up alot by doing this, the reason they use the HDD plates is because they were several metals in the coating, platinum and nickel being the main ones. Both resistant to Hydroxides. I now use this kind of cell for fairly pure Hydrogen production on the lab scale, but it still wont get me $65,000.

Adding Oxygen into a modern car is pointless, the oxygen sensor picks it up and adjusts accordingly. Hence how Nitrous oxide gets around this. Making my own Hydrogen dosnt save me money, but does cost me small amounts for things that dont need instrument grade gas from a bottle, and saves me having to buy a bottle to often.

But HHO guys are not using seperate cells, one day someone is going to find out what a 2:1 ratio of Hydrogen and Oxygen looks like when it goes off. When you let a Hydrogen baloon go bang, normally if inside you use around 1.9-2% Oxygn and its really loud, start to go above 5% and hearing loss is to be expected and maybe windows damaged. So 2:1 ratios..... what you call the perfect storm, actually it would be 2:0.98 for the best bang.

The Oxygen i store in inner tubes, even now i am very cautious when working with Hydrogen, today we flushed out 22ltrs of pipes and containers ready to fill, we used Hydrogen. Most of it is still in the equipment but its in the far building out the way.

Is safe enough until some Hydrogen gets out and air gets in, under 0.8% air Hydrogen isnt a risk, at 2% air its bad, at 7% air its really not safe to be around.

Little Ghostman said:

Adding Oxygen into a modern car is pointless, the oxygen sensor picks it up and adjusts accordingly.

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And that's where the cheat lies! Tweak the O2 sensors to run the engine richer and you go from 'clean burning stoichiometric A/F ratio of ~14.7:1 to the more fuel efficient range for ~12.7 -13.5:1. It seems contradictory up front but given the engine is producing more usable mechanical power from less fuel and air usage at the same time it works.

I've been doing it to engines of every size for years and its easily confirmed with most any newer small engine that uses fixed ratio main jet in its carburetor and has to run with the hock on just a bit to make it run smooth and have any power.

In most older fuel injected engine applications the cheat is usually as easy as putting a low forward drop germanium diode in series with the O2 sensor. A .3 -.35 volt forward is what's needed to shift the O2 sensors output to read the richer ratio as the one the computer wants to see.

Back in the old days when the first round of emission complaint vehicles came out the #1 complaint was that they had terrible fuel efficiency compared to their non compliant predecessors with the exact same engines and the shops quickly learned that by moving the carburetor jetting up one or two sizes while getting rid of the other crap fixed it.

It's also why most people who actually track their fuel economy numbers notice that their vehicle will start getting better and better fuel economy numbers just before the O2 sensors go out and everything crashes from being too rich then will go back to being poor when the new sensors were put in.

It's what I have worked around for doing emission systems gutting work all my life. Richen up the A/F ratio and then physically remove or disable all other parasitic loss elements like the EGR and exhaust restrictions such as the catalytic converters.

On the older vehicles that was pretty easy but with the new ones they have more sensors on that crap so making the computer think they are still there and seeing what they want see is the tricky part.

With the newer EGR system simply rerouting their feed line from the exhaust to a intake point works and with the downstream of the catalytic converter O2 sensors on the newer vehicles adding common spark plug anti fouler extender tends to put them in just enough isolation to make them see what they want to see as well.

On our American vehicles built well into the early 2000's that work is good for 10 - 20% gains on fuel milage regardless of how you drive which for us high mileage drivers that equals a lot of money saved in the long run.

Makes more sense to remap the engine in software than mess around like that. Having said that i have zero knowledge of your cars, but here and the EU you can often bluetooth in or use a cable and read/write the ECU.

Its fairly big business to rechip cars, but i noticed a while back some you dont need to write a new chip, and contrary to the dick turpin types who charge you £200 per chip, both the programmer and chips are fairly cheap. Nearly all cars leave the factory with a mid point set of parameters, mainly because the factory dosnt know where or how the car will be used. So alot of settings you can tweak or have tweaked (same with tractors), there are even websites around with free engine maps!

The most common thing all do is bypass the EGR, personally i think thats pointless, if you keep the egr in good condition and clean i see no reason to bypass it. We dont have the Astra now but it was a 2015 model twin turbo diesel, you could buy the programer/reader for the OBDC bus for around £14, you can also access the ECU directly via bluetooth. Looking at the mapping about a year after we got the car, i change a few things in the map.

Its mainly a tune up type of thing, the blank chip was £9 and i used a map of the web, but then changed some of the map. I prefer that to bypassing sensors or messing around with things when the car can be software tuned. None of this however is going to give you more MPG with HHO if you use the car to crack the water, 2+2 = never going to make 5.

On a brighter note i might have found a totaly new use for old HDD plates, i have been desperately looking for metal electrodes to use with electroporation machines, most curvettes are single use, most metals kill the cells and the commercial ones use coated aluminum but i cant find out what the are coated with. A quick initial test shows the top plate of a OLD HDD may well do the job, this would seriously help me out and allow me more progress.

I will make a chamber up with microscope slides and cut the HDD plate to size, plant cells first as it easier to see if any cells have taken a extra nucleus in. The HHO guys at the conference were a bit of a laugh, some of the cells they build are works of art. All that effort and no reward! One guy however also uses a split cell for sensible things, i liked his bridge between Anode and Cathode. Not easy to replicate as his wife made the bridge out of a clay she self fired.

Got another invite come through to talk at another conference, BUT it clashes with a county show this year. So the show wins as that currently pays the bills.

Makes more sense to remap the engine in software than mess around like that. Having said that i have zero knowledge of your cars, but here and the EU you can often bluetooth in or use a cable and read/write the ECU.

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I agree but for all my life tuning software for non high performance American vehicles was near impossible to get ahold of and what was available was expensive, application specific and gave very limited ability to actually change anything that matters.

Believe me I would have loved to have had the ability to get into the stock ECM master program systems and change fuel maps plus anything else at will but since it was not possible I had to go with cheating sensor signals to fool the computer into doing what I wanted it to do.

tcmtech said:

I agree but for all my life tuning software for non high performance American vehicles was near impossible to get ahold of and what was available was expensive, application specific and gave very limited ability to actually change anything that matters.

Believe me I would have loved to have had the ability to get into the stock ECM master program systems and change fuel maps plus anything else at will but since it was not possible I had to go with cheating sensor signals to fool the computer into doing what I wanted it to do.

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I know very little on your cars over there, we dont get many over here. Some of our newer cars have a system you cant get into, well you can but it isnt designed to be got into. BMW springs to mind

Little Ghostman said:

I know very little on your cars over there, we dont get many over here. Some of our newer cars have a system you cant get into, well you can but it isnt designed to be got into. BMW springs to mind

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Believe me since emission compliant EFI tuning came out over her in the late 70's people like me have been looking for software to get into those systems and nobody I ever met had any luck on finding it.

Even my old buddies who worked for the local Ford dealership in the 90's admitted they had very limited access to those systems software adjustments. Service updates were about all they could do with software.

Speedometer/tach calibration, some transmission related and maybe 1 - 2 other non critical functions were about thall they could play with and as far as I know its still largely that way.

The only workaround I know of is full aftermarket custom EFI controllers (expensive) which will run the engines but few if any will run everything else in the vehicle.

Rather why I have always been envious of the foreign made vehicles that let their customers play with everything.

The ford Focus sold here had a port you could tap into, not ODBC although it also had that as well, this one would be5 years old now. I altered the fuel light for it as it cam on with nearly 2 gallons left in the tank, so i lowered it a bit. I dont think many people are aware that alot of modern cars have a urea tank in them, it injects it after the EGR (VW is one i think has it), I think its one way they lower emissions but its never filled back up on a service and i couldnt find it in any service bulletin.

I asked a local mechanic about them and he didnt have a clue what i was on about, so its a bit of a mystery.

As for altering things, silicon labs do a 8051 dev stick, its really small but designed for ODBC dev stuff, if you buy a cable you can easily connect to any (that i have tried) ECU's via the ODBC. This is what i did with the Astra to start with, Vauxhaul wanted £1,200 fora machine to connect to the ODBC, we made one for less than £20 including the cable with the sil lab kits. If you cant see all the ECU stuff over ODBC then normally you see a bluetooth setting, turn that on via ODBC and connect with a pc bluetooth dongle.

There is a website with ALL factory set passwords on it , apparently the pass word is done with a algorythm and uses the cars VIN number, so you put your VIN umber into the software and it spits out the password. One thing though, if you dont switch the bluetooth off after messing with the ECU goodies, the car wont start after its been driven. You can also reset the collision switch thing under the bumper with the Bluetooth but i havnt found it with ODBC.

Millage i never touch, apparently alot of cars have NVRAM chips that keep a record, not seen one and never found evidence of one. But i am told they are there and over here messing with the millage gets you a hefty penalty. Except tractors, i often alter the running hours because the oil change light etc bug me flashing away in the cab.