Identify transformer

Nigel Goodwin said:

As someone who spent 46 years in the electronics trade as an engineer I certainly know the manufacturers point of view, but I also know the customers point of view. How much more are you prepared to spend on your electronics items?, 50% more?, double? - even more?.

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Will see how it impacts the prices.
It depends what quantity and type of spares will they be forced to keep in stock.
Some critical components, for example IC's, custom parts that are not readily available and so on.
It doesn't make sense to keep in stock some metal covers for washing machine or something like that.

starLED said:

Will see how it impacts the prices.

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We'll see if it happens at all

You also seem to be ignoring Supermarkets etc. do you think they should be exempt?, or just pick and choose which manufacturers are to be penalised?.

starLED said:

It depends what quantity and type of spares will they be forced to keep in stock.
Some critical components, for example IC's, custom parts that are not readily available and so on.
It doesn't make sense to keep in stock some metal covers for washing machine or something like that.

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A very long time back many manufacturers stopped keeping any cabinet parts at all - they are rarely sold, and take up vast amounts of warehousing space.

Nigel Goodwin said:

You also seem to be ignoring Supermarkets etc. do you think they should be exempt?, or just pick and choose which manufacturers are to be penalised?.

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I hope that just means that they will have to provide the name of the real manufacturers of their own-branded products, to contact for manuals and parts etc., or give a link to download the service manual.

If TVs are anything like the cheap laptops that are sold under 20+ different brand names & each with many specification variations of the same basic device, there would be a generic manual covering a whole series and hundreds of mixes of retail options based on the same parts, just providing info for each option module.

They don't have to provide a separate manual for every variation, just the building blocks that could be in any device of that series.

A lot of white box type manufacturers also provide unbranded user manuals or instructions that the reseller can add their own name to, if they wish. The same could happen with the service manuals, if the larger retailers wished to put their name in them - just adding a customised cover to the unbranded PDF.

rjenkinsgb said:

I hope that just means that they will have to provide the name of the real manufacturers of their own-branded products, to contact for manuals and parts etc., or give a link to download the service manual.

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The supermarkets ARE the manufacturer - they are just not the factory - and factories don't deal with the public, and also don't keep spares, it's up to the 'manufacturer' to order what spares they want when they order the sets.

The classic example was the original Sky HD box (where Sky didn't have a clue how electronics manufacturing worked) - Sky (as the manufacturer) sub-contracted the design of the boxes to Thomson, they then sub-contracted the physical manufacturing to Samsung. So Sky ordered x thousand boxes from Samsung, Samsung set up a production line, ordered the required parts to meet the production run, then once they were all made they closed the production line. Sky never ordered any spares, so there never were any spares available - Samsung hadn't got any, and probably had little or no records of the boxes - once the production run is finished, it's all done with as far as the factory is concerned, and the production line has been repurposed for something else.

Nigel Goodwin said:

The supermarkets ARE the manufacturer - they are just not the factory - and factories don't deal with the public, and also don't keep spares, it's up to the 'manufacturer' to order what spares they want when they order the sets.

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I guess they can't be exempt, if they don't put on a label who is the real manufacturer.

Nigel Goodwin said:

We'll see if it happens at all

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There is a strong indication that it will, not maybe in full 100% as expected at first, but knowing how EU works, it's very possible.

starLED said:

I guess they can't be exempt, if they don't put on a label who is the real manufacturer.

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You're missing the point - they ARE the real manufacturer - and no different to almost any other manufacturer.

The factories don't have spares, and don't have details of what has been made historically - once the run has finished then it's done and forgotten, everything else is down to the manufacturer.

Sony (UK) for example don't make anything, it's basically the same procedure with them - they order units and spares from a factory, everything else is down to Sony (UK) - same for Samsung, Panasonic, anyone else. The only difference is that they have most likely designed the sets, rather than buying a ready designed one - where basically you pick and choose your options, and how much you want to pay.

Two points:
At some time, schematics and component lists were created; the repair laws would just mean they had to be preserved and made available.

And, right to repair does not mean any level of damage can or must magically be fixed or it must be with all new parts.


Cars are one of the most repairable major items most people have, and just about any part that fails in use from wear can be replaced or repaired.

But, cars get written off when repairs are impractical due to the level of damage or failure & relative cost.


The same must, reasonably, apply to consumer goods - eg. at some point, "Mend it with a new one" becomes the only practical course.

I'd think the practical repair level is "keep it functional" where economically viable, not "it must look like new forever".

eg. Cracked plastic case parts can be glued (and filled / painted, if the customer wishes to pay for the service) - no different to having a car panel dent filled rather than replacing a panel.
It's a repair!


The main target of the law appears to be about the vast number of repairs that can be done, but the manufacturers don't allow anyone but their own agents to do them, by various means.

It may take a while for lawmakers to sort out details and reasonable time limits for specialised parts, but there is nothing wrong with the concept.

I'd guess in the UK it will likely be six years from last production, as present consumer law gives that as the period for merchantable quality & fit for purpose.

And any supply limitations only relate to custom parts, not generic stuff that can be sourced from distributers etc.

Nigel Goodwin said:

You're missing the point - they ARE the real manufacturer - and no different to almost any other manufacturer.

The factories don't have spares, and don't have details of what has been made historically - once the run has finished then it's done and forgotten, everything else is down to the manufacturer.

Sony (UK) for example don't make anything, it's basically the same procedure with them - they order units and spares from a factory, everything else is down to Sony (UK) - same for Samsung, Panasonic, anyone else. The only difference is that they have most likely designed the sets, rather than buying a ready designed one - where basically you pick and choose your options, and how much you want to pay.

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I am not sure of the definition of the "manufacturer" in this context.
I understand what you are saying.
Perhaps there will be companies that will hold those spares (like aftermarket car parts) so the cost doesn't fall completely on the manufacturers.

starLED said:

I am not sure of the definition of the "manufacturer" in this context.

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The company who's name (or one of their names) is on the set, and who have actually had the set made. The days when a manufcaturer had their own factories is pretty well long since gone.

starLED said:

I understand what you are saying.
Perhaps there will be companies that will hold those spares (like aftermarket car parts) so the cost doesn't fall completely on the manufacturers.

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Unfortunately, the give away prices of modern electronics means that there are hardly any component suppliers left, and unlike car spares people aren't willing to pay what it would cost.

Likewise warranty work - if you repair a car under warranty you charge the manufacturer what the job costs, so many hours of labour etc. For domestic electronics the service company gets paid a small fixed 'contribution towards the cost', which often means they lose (and quite considerably) on the repair.

This is the EU Right to repair plan.

Legislation on the right to repair
This initiative, announced for the third quarter of 2022, is expected to involve amendments to the
Sale of Goods Directive that would make repair easier for consumers. The Commission's
announcement of the inception impact assessment suggests that the initiative should help reduce
unsustainable consumption, encourage producers to design goods that last longer and are easily
reparable, and help build a circular economy. According to the new consumer agenda mentioned
above, during the revision of the directive, 'various options regarding consumer remedies will be
looked at, such as giving preference to repair over replacement, extending the minimum liability
period for new or second-hand goods, restarting a new liability period after repair'.

I got bored scanning through the usual meaningless crap, it's hard to understand what they say, and what they actually mean, as with most such documents.

I did notice only 25% of the survey were prepared to pay more for their goods

Nigel Goodwin said:

Likewise warranty work - if you repair a car under warranty you charge the manufacturer what the job costs, so many hours of labour etc. For domestic electronics the service company gets paid a small fixed 'contribution towards the cost', which often means they lose (and quite considerably) on the repair.

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That may be how car warranty work is done in the UK, but not in the US. Warranty or most even any repair in a dealership is done on the "flat rate" basis. Your given a certain amount of time and pay for a job. If something happens out of the ordinary or it takes longer to diagnose that's on the technician, he just works for free after the flat rate time.

https://www.uti.edu/blog/automotive/hourly-rate-vs-flat-rate-how-auto-mechanics-are-paid

Nigel Goodwin said:

I did notice only 25% of the survey were prepared to pay more for their goods

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Nobody will ask other 75%.

Some features of the act:

• removable batteries (readily removable and replaceable by the end-user)
• products to be designed for easy and less expensive repair
• urging manufacturers to provide maintenance guides at the time of purchase
• developing the standardization of spare parts and tools necessary for repair
• free access to repair and maintenance information to independent repairers, and consumers
• mandatory minimum period for the provision of spare parts that reflects the product's estimated lifespan, and reasonable maximum delivery times; and ensuring that the price of spare parts is reasonable, and that independent and authorized repairers, as well as consumers, have access to the necessary spare parts without unfair hindrances.
• Member States to launch campaigns to encourage consumers to choose repair and introduce incentives for repair, such as a 'craftsman bonus'

shortbus= said:

That may be how car warranty work is done in the UK, but not in the US. Warranty or most even any repair in a dealership is done on the "flat rate" basis. Your given a certain amount of time and pay for a job. If something happens out of the ordinary or it takes longer to diagnose that's on the technician, he just works for free after the flat rate time.

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I doubt anyone will pay over the reasonable limits.

I think there obviously has to be a certain amount of common sense involved - and car manufacturers have a good idea of how long a particular job should take, if you try and charge 20 hours labour for changing a clutch, then it's likely your claim would be rejected. Or if they did pay it, I suspect the garage responsible would have their warranty repair status removed. I seem to recall that some manufacturers actually specify repair times for common jobs like that, even out of warranty - and a main dealer would only be able to charge that amount of labour.

It is certainly policed by the car manufacturers in the UK, I know someone was approached by BMW about a car they bought second hand, which was still under warranty. The car had undergone a considerable number of warranty claims, all from the same dealer, all expensive, and BMW were dubious about their honesty - I suspect it wasn't just one isolated case either.

In the electronics area you used to have to send all replaced parts back to be examined, this helped to avoid false claims - and in the early days you didn't get paid anything at all for the warranty repair, you just got the parts replaced for free.

Nigel Goodwin said:

I think there obviously has to be a certain amount of common sense involved - and car manufacturers have a good idea of how long a particular job should take, if you try and charge 20 hours labour for changing a clutch, then it's likely your claim would be rejected. Or if they did pay it, I suspect the garage responsible would have their warranty repair status removed. I seem to recall that some manufacturers actually specify repair times for common jobs like that, even out of warranty - and a main dealer would only be able to charge that amount of labour.

It is certainly policed by the car manufacturers in the UK, I know someone was approached by BMW about a car they bought second hand, which was still under warranty. The car had undergone a considerable number of warranty claims, all from the same dealer, all expensive, and BMW were dubious about their honesty - I suspect it wasn't just one isolated case either.

In the electronics area you used to have to send all replaced parts back to be examined, this helped to avoid false claims - and in the early days you didn't get paid anything at all for the warranty repair, you just got the parts replaced for free.

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I know that car repair shops often overcharge bill if repair is done by insurance claim.
Insurance companies always put exact amount of labor (hours) needed for repair, and car shops always do increase that amount for 20-30%.
I can bet that insurance knows that kind of a "behavior", and deliberately sets prices lower by 20% in start, expecting that car shops will overcharge.
Maybe car, electronics... manufacturers do the same.

Goodness me I didn't expect my post would create such an interesting debate!

Just an update, the pcb has other faulty parts, the diodes next to the transformer are allowing current in both directions!!

There are some good parts though, so I'll remove and add to my odds and ends bits.

Thank you all for taking the time to try and help, very appreciated.

Cheers

MoAw said:

Goodness me I didn't expect my post would create such an interesting debate!

Just an update, the pcb has other faulty parts, the diodes next to the transformer are allowing current in both directions!!

There are some good parts though, so I'll remove and add to my odds and ends bits.

Thank you all for taking the time to try and help, very appreciated.

Cheers

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Have you taken the diodes out and tested them?, it could be reading through something else - but if they are S/C that could explain what killed the transformer.

That is a possibility, but not going to waste more time on it. I'll remove what's there, test and if ok I'll save for something else. Your help is appreciated Nigel