Is black hole just massive particle ?

You didn't answer any questions. You avoided them

Do a diagram, figure it out

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And the questions you did answer you didn't give us the truth.

The Moon is falling toward the Earth

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Then when you thought you had nothing to contribute (I think you do), you couldn't admit you made and error and learned something.
So what, you didn't know the moon is falling up. A lot of people don't realise this and it is one of the reasons why I asked. To cause people to think about it.
I'm sure there are many other readers who now thinking, "wow, that's interesting" and are thinking more about things like gravity.

Even Tytower, who has some personality issues is not afraid to pose new questions and theories. Some of them are based on no evidence or a misinterpretation and rather than modifying his thoughts when proven wrong or corrected, he gets angry. It's a great way to solve problems.. a temper tantrum!
In any case I applaud his effort and I encourage him to keep trying. I encourage anybody to contribute and it doesn't matter if errors are made.

and for lack of information you want to go on an assumption binge

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You really don't understand any theoretical physics do you ? I'll give you a hint. The name "theorectical" has something to do with it.
Given a set of conditions we attempt to predict an outcome. This is then compared with observation if possible and any conflicts need to be explained.

It's very simple... an object has an orbital velocity around a black hole, How does it lose energy to fall in ?
It's ok to say you don't know, because neither do I. Which is why I ask the question.
There are things I do not know and there are things I do know.
You have tried to convince me of things you don't know either. If I find conflict between what anybody says and what I think is correct, I test the logic.
If I'm in error, I correct what I know and move on to the next question. If I find that you're in error, then I will either assume you have made a mistake or don't understand the question,
or ask more questions of you to clarify your logic and make sense of it, or show that it is not correct and then dismiss that logic, or if I think there is more to it, keep memory of it for later use.

I like nothing better than being proven wrong on some train of thought. It means I've learn something new which I would not have discovered on my own.


I could choose to ignore what others say and continue to believe my own lies. Ignorance is bliss.

dont bother me with any of it.

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Have you considered not reading this thread if it bothers you so much ?

Or maybe you're as keen to learn something new as I am.

Hi A and T,

This is actually getting comical now. I do have to laugh, so thanks to both of you (april and trash) for that because i really do love comedy, no kidding.

Actually Trash, i learn something new every day, but in this thread i havent learned anything new, at least not yet.

What i did notice about you, trash, is that you cant accept anyone else's way of thinking but would rather mock and proclaim that your way of thinking is the best. This is why Feynman was so 'seemingly' harsh to some of his students in some of his lectures. Because they thought they new the best way and couldnt accept anyone else's way of thinking. I dont think it was because they really couldn't understand it, i just think it was because they didnt want to take the time to understand it and accept it as a way of looking at the world. But i see where the harshness comes from now...when someone with so little experience has the audacity to proclaim that they seem to know the best way and that they are somehow given the right to judge the author harshly.

The issue i see is you wanted to bypass was the fact that the moon was falling *less* over time. You cant accept that relational operator because it's not something you are used to seeing. Just because *you* cant accept it, that doesnt make it any less valuable. Especially when we have just previously discussed the moon in terms of it falling or not falling.

If i say to you i threw an object like a baseball toward someone who was going to catch it and we mapped it's trajectory over time and after a time someone standing nearby saw it going up into the air a little and then falling down and then shouting, "Hey look, the ball is falling", and they you wanted to be able to describe the way the ball was falling to THAT person, you might describe it in terms of how it falls rather than it's direct path.

But even so, you still havent done a diagram. Do a diagram like i asked, draw the vectors, then either analyze the situation for all the forces or else ask someone else to do that. All i was saying was that the ball or the moon does fall, but because of the rotation it can never hit it's target. And since it is gaining energy it appears to fall 'less' over time because the distance it moves toward the Earth in one unit time is less as time progresses. This isnt that difficult to comprehend. The reason 'fall' isnt such a bad word here is because if the moon were not rotating around the Earth, it would collide with the Earth. This is one of the points brought up sometimes, that something can continuously 'fall' and never actually hit the Earth.

April, you rarely comment about anything except to try to put down someone else for just about any reason you can think of. As i said before, try contributing instead of mocking and you'll do much better in the long run and you'll add to this thread instead of just taking up space in it. Also, some of your own thoughts would be good to hear also instead of just a bunch of links. Tell us what you think, or at least what you think is important to the issues at hand.

I think you guys enjoy these little debates. Otherwise, why do it?

Hi Mike,

He he, sometimes yes, but i thought i would post one more time in the hopes that 'someone' would be able to take a fresh look at the problem and take the time to go through the steps to examine it carefully. If not all is not lost though, as there are many more interesting topics on this site and hopefully any future readers will take the time to go through the formulation.
Now you see why i dont like to reply sometimes when there is a misunderstanding like this It just keeps going on forever.

april said:

Yep he's been like that from the start - another been there knowitall. Talks as if he has been to the moon and to a black hole
Ho Hum !

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Most RED I have seen ever. And quick too. 29 Posts....and you are shot to pieces. A record maybe?

Outa here

tvtech

[MODNOTE]Deleted Abusive remarks[/MODNOTE]

This will give an idea of how the forces of Gravity and Magnetism will change . This machine compresses a quarter to the size of a dime by passing a 6KV pulse of 100,000Amps through a coil with a quarter coin at its center.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_5myKEarfg

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121102.html

A pretty big particle I'd say . The one at the center of our galaxy is 4 Million times the mass of our sun
X-rays are generated in material heated to over 100 million degrees Celsius, accelerated to nearly the speed of light as it falls into the Miky Way's central black hole.

hi

i've noticed a couple of posts (especialy #2) and i would like to say my view about
"black holes". I haven't read every single post on this huge thread, it would be
really tedious procedure so excuse me in case i'm missing any important details
and my response proves irrelevant.

From books, from newspapers, from TV documentaries from internet articles, etc we all
can have a basic idea of what scientists say a "black hole" is. In brief i'll say what
i think it is commonly known.. that a "black hole" attracts matter which approaches in
close distance, such as space rocks, planets,etc and whatever object approaches to a black
hole it cannot sastain it's integrity and it disintegrates into ..particles possibly?

Then a black hole it's not exactly a hole! it's more likely a giant star that is very dense,
and because of it's density and it's size it also has huge gravitational force and as it is
known light cannot escape so we can see it as we can see the sun or any other space object
that reflects light.

Simple thinking of it personaly i imagine that if there was a way to travel close to a
"black hole" and try to go through it would be like if we were trying to go through the
earth so we can see what's on the back side!! traveling inside a "black hole" and going
to the other side or whatever else it is said we can do within a "black hole" it appears
as an exaggeration or maybe an unreal story!?

But it's not the only scientific stuff that has some spots that look unreal, recently i was
reading that scientists found carbohydrates (sugar) to a distant star.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120829-sugar-space-planets-science-life/

again simple thinking of it i would say.. they can't see what's on mars and on the surface
of other planets so they need to send rovers and satellites for a close look, but they can
see carbohydrates (sugar) floating 400 light years away in space?!

What about the other story about the technical issues CERN faced few years back...
at which two famous scientists Holger Bech Nielsen and Masao Ninomiya appears
to support the following:

"the particle might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward
through time and stop the collider before it could create one"

which later their view characterized as a rather radical theory..

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/space/13lhc.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holger_Bech_Nielsen
https://arxiv.org/abs/0707.1919
https://arxiv.org/abs/0802.2991


So i'm wondering what are they feeding us?! other than the photos with the artistic
representation of some stars and galaxies that we can find on internet, is there also
an "artistic" approach on their scientific theories?

Hi,

Interesting ideas and links there.

They are feeding us ideas too, just ideas, that may or may not work out over time. It's our way of being human and asking questions and not having the perfect answers right away but striving to find those answers by pure dialog. "The Great Conversation" as Encyclopedia Britannica puts it.
It is philosophy.

MrAl said:

Hi,

Interesting ideas and links there..

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Hi

thanks!

MrAl said:

They are feeding us ideas too, just ideas, that may or may not work out over time. It's our way of being human and asking questions and not having the perfect answers right away but striving to find those answers by pure dialog. "The Great Conversation" as Encyclopedia Britannica puts it.
It is philosophy.

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it took me some time, but I think i understood what exactly you mean!

P.S i'd love to see what other members have to say..

I dont see a black hole as anything other than a black mass . It is dense .20 Billion times more mass in some than our sun perhaps and maybe much more? . One at the center of each and every galaxy and responsible for all of the galaxies gravitational effects.

If you look at the size of earth with its molten core, then the sun with its huge mass ,molten with pressures we just cant visualise or barely contemplate and magnetic forces that hold billions of tons of molten material high in orbit for days ,then consider a much more massive body again the mind boggles .

Suffice to say the physical effects going on in there are the same as those going on in the earth and the sun but we are not likely to ever know or see them.Even the best of us can only speculate !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20303592

From the above I have come to the conclusion that these vague propositions are really about getting finance to continue a lifestyle of university leisure rather than working

"So, dark energy is something that increases with time. As the Universe expands, it gives us more space and therefore more energy, and at some point dark energy takes over from gravity to end the deceleration and drive an acceleration," the Portsmouth University, UK, researcher told BBC News.

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The discovery that everything in the cosmos is now moving apart at a faster and faster rate was one of the major breakthroughs of the 20th Century. But scientists have found themselves grasping for new physics to try to explain this extraordinary phenomenon.

A number of techniques are being deployed to try to get some insight. One concerns so-called baryon acoustic oscillations.

These refer to the pressure-driven waves that passed through the post-Big-Bang Universe and which subsequently became frozen into the distribution of matter once it had cooled to a sufficient level.

Today, those oscillations show themselves as a "preferred scale" in the spread of galaxies - a slight excess in the numbers of such objects with separations of 500 million light-years.

It is an observation that can be used as a kind of standard ruler to measure the geometry of the cosmos.

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Just flicking around I found an MIT post interesting
https://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/black-hole-flare-measured-chandra-1106.html

As black holes go, Sagittarius A* is relatively low-key. The black hole at the center of our galaxy emits very little energy for its size, giving off roughly as much energy as the sun, even though it is 4 million times as massive.

However, astronomers have observed that nearly once a day, the black hole rouses to action, emitting a brief burst of light before settling back down. It’s unclear what causes such flare-ups, and scientists have sought to characterize these periodic bursts in order to better understand how black holes evolve

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I have a suspicion that this thing is the real source of new stars and the flare-ups are stars being popped out . Just why or how is not something I would speculate on but I would be pretty sure it involves heat , gravity and magnetism in huge amounts

What does intrigue me now though is OK we have a Universe full of black masses with galaxies around each but where do they come from? What is beyond that?

Consider the ant. It is born in and lives and dies in its single colony. If it has intelligence , and obviously it does , what does it think of its surroundings . What chance has it of understanding the meaning of your house which is alongside its nest? It perceives light and dark and heat so it knows what it needs to know to survive . It could see the moon and possibly the existence of planets with its eyes.
If it could gain a level of technology it could see and understand the minature better than us but would be struggling to see and understand the universe at about the same level as us

Imagine them trying to take a flight to the moon. I suppose the energy needed to lift off a smaller craft would be much less but it would need more of it to travel the length of one of our space vehicles so overall use of energy would be about the same ? let me know if you disagree because I have forgotten most of my Physics training on this.

Just specking about looking for book ideas.

april said:

The black hole at the center of our galaxy emits very little energy for its size

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Hi

I want to ask.. Hawking radiation theory is it proven? usually i'm looking at the Wikipedia articles, but I haven't
noticed any clear statement for that.

Just looked at the Wikipedia article referenced above:

"In the event that speculative large extra dimension theories are correct, CERN's Large Hadron Collider may be able to create micro black holes and observe their evaporation." (My emphasis)

How big (or small) does a black hole have to be to start (or stop) acting like a black hole?

That's some research perhaps best left alone.

Scary...

This radiation does not come directly from the black hole itself, but rather is a result of virtual particles being "boosted" by the black hole's gravitation into becoming real particles.[10]

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Some of this quantum stuff is just fantasy as I said before its more about research money than reality.
Take it all with a hefty dose of "doubt"
There is not enough mass on the earth to produce even a small black mass . You can smash particles together but you cant compress them to the extents nescessary -You are quite safe

This is the sort of thing I think is really going on in the center of all galaxies
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap121205.html

They are not visible in our light spectrum but it is matter, vibrating in the radio frequencies
As this material falls back it creates new stars as and when the masses get large enough
I lean towards the belief that its a cyclic thing not a big bang. The activities that gives rise to what they call the big bang event are happening all the time to material inside the black mass

april.

One thing (of many, many things) that I am utterly unclear on is how the Big Bang (BB), , as it is conceived, figures into (or with, along side, beside, in spite of...) its place in time, specifically, infinity ( ∞ ).

In other words/symbols:

This?... ∞BB ...or this BB∞ ...or, perhaps, this ∞BB∞ ...or even this BB[SUP]∞[/SUP] ..........

CBB

Ive always refered to a Black Hole as Galaxies garbage disposals except the matter is ripped apart down to the attomic level and reused...energy is not used up just transformed into another form{recycled] as you will.