Making Hydrogen

Marks256 said:

What is RMS?

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Root Mean Square, Also known as the Average Voltage. To get Peak voltage divide RMS voltage by .707 or multiply by 1.414.

Ok, i don't get it, so i am just going to leave it alone. Ahh. Ahh, ok, i must know! How do you find the RMS voltage?

Marks256 said:

Ok, i don't get it, so i am just going to leave it alone. Ahh. Ahh, ok, i must know! How do you find the RMS voltage?

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Well, 120V (if you live in the US) Is Already in RMS. Most AC voltage meters Read RMS. Go ahead, put your meter in the wall socket on the AC volts setting, BUT BECAREFUL!!!. Transformers also put out RMS voltage, they are also rated in RMS (you might want to do that, its safer). Peak voltage comes into play when designing Power Supplies. For example, 12V RMS is 16.9V Peak. That means after it gets rectified, you will have 16.9V, If you pass it through a Capacitor Filter, you will have 16.9V V. This 16.9V also means your caps have to be able to handle atleast twice that voltage, 32V or greater would be good, but always allow a bit of more for spikes and such.

Pass it through a regulator and you can end up with anything from 1V to 16.9V (if you have a low voltage drop out regulator- meaning the regulator does drop alot of voltage- for example, a Diode drops .7V.)

So If you have Peak voltage (which you rarely have, but it comes in handy when your talking power) and you want RMS, Divide Peak Voltage by 1.414 or Multiply by .707 Just a note, Power, Voltage and current can all be applied to this. For example, your speaker may put out 50W RMS, that would be 70.7W Peak.

As Ive said before, .707 and 1.414 are the Average Voltage over a period of time.

Oh, ok, i see. Thanks.

Overclocked said:

Most AC voltage meters Read RMS.

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Actually NOT very true at all, VERY few meters read RMS, the vast majority read 'average', and are scaled to read RMS - but ONLY for a sinewave!.

True RMS meters are available, but are much more expensive. Also, old moving iron meters read RMS - due to the different way they work.

RMS is really VERY simple, it's the AC voltage that gives the same heating effect as the same DC voltage. So 120V RMS to your electric heater will make it exactly the same heat as 120V DC.

Few questions about the gases collected...

First, how would one fill a balloon with the combined gases. Electrolysis seperates, but doesn't build any pressure, atleast not enough to inflate a balloon.

Second, once the balloon is filled, how bouyent will it be? I know that hydrogen is lighter than helium, and will float well, but oxygen is heavier. So how much weight will this balloon lift? Enough for a timer, battery, and ignition circuit?

HarveyH42 said:

Few questions about the gases collected...

First, how would one fill a balloon with the combined gases. Electrolysis seperates, but doesn't build any pressure, atleast not enough to inflate a balloon.

Second, once the balloon is filled, how buoyant will it be? I know that hydrogen is lighter than helium, and will float well, but oxygen is heavier. So how much weight will this balloon lift? Enough for a timer, battery, and ignition circuit?

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Im guessing because of the Oxygen and the Hydrogen, it will be Neutrally buoyant. Ive seen people fill them a bit, I dont know how they did it. You could always put the gases in the balloon, and fill it with Helium too. Helium wont explode, since its a noble gas.

Trying to recreate the hindenburg I see.

Overclocked said:

Im guessing because of the Oxygen and the Hydrogen, it will be Neutrally buoyant. Ive seen people fill them a bit, I dont know how they did it. You could always put the gases in the balloon, and fill it with Helium too. Helium wont explode, since its a noble gas.

Trying to recreate the hindenburg I see.

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Just a childish curiosity. Remembered a few stories about welding gases and lighting a string on fire...

No no no. See, the hydrogen and the oxygen will be produced at two separate locations. It is 100% possible to harvest just hydrogen.

This is what you do;

1. Take a glass jar (yes it MUST be glass, so you can see all the cool things happening),
2. Find a lid for your glass jar.
3. Drill two holes in the top, both about .5" in diameter.
4. Stick a pipe trough each of the holes(make sure they fit sort of loose, but not too loose!)
5. Run a wire down the side of the pipe, through the hole, and into the jar.
6. Stick a conductive plate on the end of the wire.
7. Seal the hole with some type of putty.(make sure it is REALLY sealed tight!)
8. Put the lid on the jar(you know, the lid with the holes, the pipe, and the wire.)
9. Fill the jar with water. Yes, through one of the pipes, and make sure the water is also all the way up both pipes.
10. Put each balloon on each pipe. MAKE SURE NO AIR GETS INTO THE DEVICE! Air will wreck dilute the elements!
11. Check for leaks, and deal with them.
12. Apply power to each of the wires.
13. Let it run for a while, or until each balloon is to the desired limit.
14. CARFULLY take each balloon off the machine, and seal them. WITHOUT letting any air in!

Explanation: The water in the balloons will act as a seal for the hydrogen and oxygen. It also acts as a pressurizer. So, when the hydrogen and oxygen are made, then it will fill the balloons. If you would like, i will draw a few diagrams for you.

I get what you have in mind, but all combustion requires oxygen. So I would need to rupture a hydrogen filled balloon before ignition. If the balloon contained both gasses, then it could be set off from inside the balloon. Think it would be a more spectacular reaction. But then again, a spark could be used to pop the balloon and ignite the hydrogen at the same time.

I just increased voltage, how much both the anode and cathode are releasing gas? Before only the cathode is releasing gas.

Heres an Off topic Question:

If I have Aluminum as the cathode and Anode, will I get Aluminum Sludge or Aluminum Oxide. I figure if the anode oxidizes, and the cathode reduces, I can use use graphite as the cathode and put Aluminum on the Anode.

HarveyH42 said:

Second, once the balloon is filled, how bouyent will it be? I know that hydrogen is lighter than helium, and will float well, but oxygen is heavier. So how much weight will this balloon lift? Enough for a timer, battery, and ignition circuit?

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A mole of hydrogen/oxygen from electrolysis would weigh,

H2 * 66% * 2 = 1.33g
O2 * 33% * 32 = 10.66g
Total 12g

A mole of air would weigh
N2 * 72% * 28 = 20g
O2 * 28% * 32 = 9g
Total 29g

So H2/O2 mix would lift 17g per mole. A mole of gas is 22Ltr

I think the above is correct.

Mike.

Overclocked said:

If I have Aluminum as the cathode and Anode, will I get Aluminum Sludge or Aluminum Oxide. I figure if the anode oxidizes, and the cathode reduces, I can use use graphite as the cathode and put Aluminum on the Anode.

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i have done these type of electrolysis long back. and if i remember correctly , you won't get aluminium oxide , but you will get aluminium hydroxide which forms as a white substance.

If you really want large amounts of Hydrogen, then just mix aluminum and lye. You know, the drain cleaner. I have never done this, so PLEASE BE CAREFULL! I know that it is a very quick and effective way to make A LOT of hydrogen, VERY QUICK! You better have a BIG balloon! Seriously, though, this is a fast and simple way to make it.

Marks256 said:

If you really want large amounts of Hydrogen, then just mix aluminum and lye. You know, the drain cleaner. I have never done this, so PLEASE BE CAREFULL! I know that it is a very quick and effective way to make A LOT of hydrogen, VERY QUICK! You better have a BIG balloon! Seriously, though, this is a fast and simple way to make it.

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That doesnt work. I tired it with draino, and AL foil. Nothing. Doesnt even boil, but I used liquid stuff (which is 5% Lye). Ive read I have to use crystal draino (thats atleast 65%)

5% is nothing compared to 65%. I would suggest getting the actual brand "Lye". That is what it says on the bottle. If not, i think Hydrogen Peroxide mixed with "Active Yeast" will do the trick. My old science teacher used this method to make her hydrogen, before she thought about buying it in bottles.

Overclocked said:

That doesnt work. I tired it with draino, and AL foil. Nothing. Doesnt even boil, but I used liquid stuff (which is 5% Lye). Ive read I have to use crystal draino (thats atleast 65%)

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Man...aluminium is very reactive but it is very quickly covered with with a chemical inert oxide.

You tried it? How much did it put off? If that is the problem, with the chemical covering it, then all you would have to do is cut the aluminum into tiny strips.

Aluminum corrodes fairly rapidly in either an acid OR a base. That pretty much shoots to hell any hope for a productive electrolyte.

Hi,

I can't claim to have read every single post in this topic, but I just thought I'd add my little bit. In my experience electrolysis is a pretty slow way to make H2, with pure water and a low voltage (<200). A few things to speed it up:

Add H2SO4 to the water, it souldn't get used up in the reaction (so you can just add more water and you've still got the sulphuric acid in there). This will increase the conductivity of the water, more current flowing for a given voltage.

Increase surface area of electrodes. My chemistry teacher once put Iron rods into accid for a while until they became pittted, then coated them in a silver compound (some cheap jewelery chemical stuff?) so they didn't corrode during the process.

Also, this is unconfirmed, I've never tried it, but apparently, chopped DC can increase the speed of the reaction (much like using ultrasonics). Off the top of my head, in certain 'pseudo-science circles', the frequencies are 600Hz (well not 'hertz, but cps), 610, 12Khz, and 40-42Khz. I did see this process on an episode of 'equinox' on CH4 in the UK, where guy used a small motorbike battery, a circuit, and produced enough H2/O2 to make a small implosive welding flame (3 inches). As I said, unconfirmed, and I haven't seen any evidence for this, so god knows how he actually did it (mains power from hidden cable?).

My £0.02, keelynet has lots of info on this, most of it anecdotal, but interesting none the less.

Good Luck.

Blueteeth