Math and Me

[Mikebits]

I often feel that I have some sort of brain damage, as math has always given me so much difficulty in comprehending. This problem has been with me since the third grade, and troubles me to this day. Simple things like adding in my head, remembering the times table, and the list goes on. The tragedy for me is that this problem has closed many doors for me in the past, and when working on problems today, I still struggle.

My first college Algebra class, the prof made each student, go up on the whiteboard and work a problem, my name was called, I broke into a panic, and grabbed my things, walked out, and dropped the class. I ended retaking the class the following semester with a different prof who did not force students up on the white board (I also had to get a tutor which helped me get through the course). I use to get sick and throw up the morning of a math test. Don't even ask me about my calculus classes
I really do see the value in math and for electronics it is a invaluable tool, but alas, I do not think I will ever be able to overcome this obstacle, and will continue to rely on math aids like graphing calculators, and endless hours trying to grasp simple math concepts...

So what is wrong with me

 

[Ratchit]

I often feel that I have some sort of brain damage, as math has always given me so much difficulty in comprehending. This problem has been with me since the third grade, and troubles me to this day. Simple things like adding in my head, remembering the times table, and the list goes on. The tragedy for me is that this problem has closed many doors for me in the past, and when working on problems today, I still struggle.

My first college Algebra class, the prof made each student, go up on the whiteboard and work a problem, my name was called, I broke into a panic, and grabbed my things, walked out, and dropped the class. I ended retaking the class the following semester with a different prof who did not force students up on the white board (I also had to get a tutor which helped me get through the course). I use to get sick and throw up the morning of a math test. Don't even ask me about my calculus classes
I really do see the value in math and for electronics it is a invaluable tool, but alas, I do not think I will ever be able to overcome this obstacle, and will continue to rely on math aids like graphing calculators, and endless hours trying to grasp simple math concepts...

So what is wrong with me

You have a bad case of math anxiety. This is a serious mental disorder, and you should seek professional help. Especially if you experience this problem with other subjects or functioning by yourself in front of other people.

Ratch

 

[Mikebits]

Thanks, but I am no longer in school, this was awhile back. I only mention it as a history of my issues with math. I have no problem with public speaking, in fact I do quite well in that area. Recently I have been working on some design projects and hit a brick wall when math comes into play. Not basic math mind you, more like calculus and trig concepts.

 

[crutschow]

I got a B.S. in EE so I had to take the prerequisite math courses but it was never easy for me.
Some people can sort of think in math as a second language, but I never could.
So I learned to get by with basic Algebra and a small amount of Calculus in doing my work but managed to mostly avoid anything more complex such as using Laplace transforms or anything beyond simple integrals and differentials.
My saviors were the calculator and then the computer. I let them do as much of the grunt work as possible.
Matlab and Matcad make dealing with complex equations much easier.

 

[Ian Rogers]

You are absolutely right about the Prof who teaches the subject..

I love mathematics.... The guy who taught me in college was brilliant.. Because he was fun so was the lessons. He made things so clear... When we did the EE science, the tutor used my experience by letting me help ( sort of like a TA )

The teacher makes all the difference...

 

[Ratchit]

Thanks, but I am no longer in school, this was awhile back. I only mention it as a history of my issues with math. I have no problem with public speaking, in fact I do quite well in that area. Recently I have been working on some design projects and hit a brick wall when math comes into play. Not basic math mind you, more like calculus and trig concepts.

Perhaps your problem is that you are not perceiving mathematics for what it is. Some folks call math a "language", and others think of it as a "science". I don't think of it as either, because you cannot communicate with it unless you know another language already. Shorthand is similar in that respect. And, unlike the natural world, it is too abstract to be called a science, although its symbolism can used to represent natural quantities. I would call it a bookkeeping method which implements the principle of equates called equations to solve for relationships between quantities. Although easy to describe, this method is a very potent way to derive these relationships. You have to master the techniques of manipulating equations to practice mathematical bookkeeping. Calculus is the mathematics of rates and incremental summation. Trigonometry is the relationships of right triangles. Once you understand what the relationships between the quantities to be manipulated, and learn the techniques of manipulation, your facility in math should improve.

Ratch

 

[ronsimpson]

I often feel that I have some sort of brain damage

Mike,
I love math, it is English for me.
This is a feedback problem. I am not good at English. In meetings, when I write on the white board and some one laughs, it causes me to make more errors, which causes more laughs.
On the white board there is on spell checker.
I have written many technical papers.
"I know I will fail so I fail"

 

[MrAl]

I often feel that I have some sort of brain damage, as math has always given me so much difficulty in comprehending. This problem has been with me since the third grade, and troubles me to this day. Simple things like adding in my head, remembering the times table, and the list goes on. The tragedy for me is that this problem has closed many doors for me in the past, and when working on problems today, I still struggle.

My first college Algebra class, the prof made each student, go up on the whiteboard and work a problem, my name was called, I broke into a panic, and grabbed my things, walked out, and dropped the class. I ended retaking the class the following semester with a different prof who did not force students up on the white board (I also had to get a tutor which helped me get through the course). I use to get sick and throw up the morning of a math test. Don't even ask me about my calculus classes
I really do see the value in math and for electronics it is a invaluable tool, but alas, I do not think I will ever be able to overcome this obstacle, and will continue to rely on math aids like graphing calculators, and endless hours trying to grasp simple math concepts...

So what is wrong with me

Hi,

Sorry to hear about that. Could you possibly have ADD? If you think so, seek treatment which could help.

I was lucky i liked math and that was mostly because of a special teacher i met along the way and a special professor i think. Well that and i loved calculators and sought to learn what was going on with them.

Do you play chess? That could help develop some problem solving skills and if you find it fun then that will keep you interested. There are free chess sites that allow playing chess with other people in all parts of the world for free. It can be addicting so dont get too hung up on it though

I wish i could help but from a distance it's a little hard to pin point what is going on. It could just be a memory thing because memory is key to most problem solving and general life. Perhaps perform exercises to improve your memory which according to more recent theory should get better with the right exercises.

I find that i had forgotten a lot myself from years and years ago, in math and in science. It takes time to recall some things so you do have to give yourself time too.

 

[strantor]

Aren't you a little old to be lamenting about your mathematical shortcomings? I can't dunk a basketball, never could. I wanted so badly to do it just once but my pallette of attributes didn't offer up anything helpful for dunking a basketball. So I found something I could do, and I did it well, and it fulfills me. I don't even think about dunking basketballs anymore. Maybe if my profession was a basketball referee and I had to watch athletes do something that I envy on a daily basis, I would still be holding onto a bit of butthurt about it.

Maybe this math thing just keeps getting thrown in your face because of the line of work you're in. Maybe you should consider a transition to another related line of work that doesn't require all the math. You don't have any problem with public speaking, maybe you could transition into sales. A salesman who comes from a technical background and actually knows what he's talking about can make way more than an engineer. Or management, that's good money too, engineering management you'd still be on the same projects but you'd be cracking the whip making other people do the math.

 

[Pommie]

I'm lucky as I've always found maths to be fairly easy. I recently watched a video course called "TTC Video - Secrets of Mental Math" which starts with a simple way to learn the times tables and then goes on to teach all the ways to do maths in your head.

Mike.

 

[Mikebits]

Sorry to hear about that. Could you possibly have ADD? If you think so, seek treatment which could help.

In the 60's I was diagnosed by a doctor as having hyperactivity (Now called ADHD), they gave me medications (Ritalin) for it as I was acting out in school (3rd grade). Not sure how long I was on that stuff, but I don't think it was too long. In college I actually had one math teacher who for some reason liked me and I thought I should get a math degree (go figure), due to the way I approached my problems, but he thought I should get tested for dyscalculia, but I never followed up on that.

 

[Mikebits]

Aren't you a little old to be lamenting about your mathematical shortcomings? I can't dunk a basketball, never could. I wanted so badly to do it just once but my pallette of attributes didn't offer up anything helpful for dunking a basketball. So I found something I could do, and I did it well, and it fulfills me. I don't even think about dunking basketballs anymore. Maybe if my profession was a basketball referee and I had to watch athletes do something that I envy on a daily basis, I would still be holding onto a bit of butthurt about it.

Maybe this math thing just keeps getting thrown in your face because of the line of work you're in. Maybe you should consider a transition to another related line of work that doesn't require all the math. You don't have any problem with public speaking, maybe you could transition into sales. A salesman who comes from a technical background and actually knows what he's talking about can make way more than an engineer. Or management, that's good money too, engineering management you'd still be on the same projects but you'd be cracking the whip making other people do the math.

I am sort of taking your tone as condescension or patronizing. Not sure how to respond to your comment, but thanks.

 

[spec]

Thanks, but I am no longer in school, this was awhile back. I only mention it as a history of my issues with math. I have no problem with public speaking, in fact I do quite well in that area. Recently I have been working on some design projects and hit a brick wall when math comes into play. Not basic math mind you, more like calculus and trig concepts.

Hi Mike,

I have just read read all the posts in this thread for the first time- absolutely fascinating.

The first thing is there is absolutely nothing wrong with your brain so stop imagining there is. If there was anything amiss you would not be able to communicate the way you do on ETO. The second thing is that you imply that you can't do maths- I bet you can, and further more, I bet your maths capabilities are way above the national average.

Like ronsimpson, I love maths but I feel the same way as you do- I wish I knew more and had paid attention in class. I never learned the times tables, on purpose- I was too lazy and besides which I thought learning by rote was against the principle of maths. I was top of the class in maths when a nipper, but then I had rheumatic fever and was off school for a month. When I returned the class had done long division, which I new nothing about. Although I picked up the technique from the other kids, I always had a phobia about long division.

I have known and worked with many mathematicians. Many of them say the same thing- I wish I had learned more.

About mental arithmetic- I too am absolutely hopeless and fall more into the plodder category.
I just don't seem to have any temporary memory available to store caries, remainder, and running totals in. Yet, my brother-in-law, who doesn't know the first thing about mathematics, can work out in a second what numbers to go for in a game of darts for an out. That is something I just could never do without a pencil and paper. Also, if you gave me a list of numbers, say four digits each, to write down, some of the digits would be swapped.

But I find it easy to visualize physical things, including circuit diagrams, in my mind. If I have a problem I will spend hours working out ways of solving it. I find it impossible to stop thinking about the problem and often will dream about it too until it is resolved.

We are all different and many of the mathematicians I knew at work were totally at odds with the practical aspects of life. One of their biggest failings was an inability to use the correct formula for an application. There were about 20% (that number again) who were simply brilliant- they did not know about circuit design but they could grasp the objective and very often suggest better approaches rather than just trying to blind you, and themselves, with science.

spec

 

[spec]

Mike,
I love math, it is English for me.
This is a feedback problem. I am not good at English. In meetings, when I write on the white board and some one laughs, it causes me to make more errors, which causes more laughs.
On the white board there is on spell checker.
I have written many technical papers.
"I know I will fail so I fail"

I was very surprised to read your post above, ron, especially in view of your many posts on ETO which show the work of a solid and confident designer.
I bet the a... holes who laugh couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

We had a saying at work, I don't know if it is universal: 'Beware the eloquent fool' We had so many managers and engineers who had wonderful presence: they were sharp, witty, and assured at meetings. But they were incompetent and dangerous; they created mayhem on projects.

You say you are not good at English- there is no evidence of that on ETO.

spec

PS: I had a real struggle writing until an old hand from the Tech Publications Department explained a few basic rules- now I quite like writing and have even written some fiction. Belive me, compared to maths/electronics, getting the hang of English writing is a doddle. Oh, and if your schooling was anything like mine, forget the twaddle you were taught about the English language.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

After reading some more posts i think what might also help is looking into approximation techniques such as using differentials. For example, calculating the square root of a number in your head using differentials.

The more general problem however should be approached with the fact that problems can be different so different arrangements will help with different problems.

I am sure you have heard some of these already but i'll mention a few here...

Approximating a 15 percent tip. Well, 15 percent is 10 percent plus 5 percent, or even more simply put it is 10 percent plus half of that ten percent. So here we observe that we must calculate 15 percent and that 10 is very easy to calculate, and then taking half of that is easy too, so if we do it this way we just have to add the two calculations. 10 percent of 21 dollars is 2.10, and half of that is 1.05, and the sum is 2.10+1.05 which equals 3.15 . But another point is that approximation works in many cases because it is just good enough, and so here we would say that 10 percent of 21 dollars is 2.00, and half of that is 1.00, and so the sum is 2.00+1.00=3 dollars and that's good enough.

Approximating the conversion from Celsius to Farenheit uses a similar idea but slightly different.
We know that we have to multiply by 9/5 and then add 32. But 9/5 is just 10 percent less than 2. So we double the number, then subtract 10 percent of that number, then add 32 or just 30 for an approximation.
So 100, doubled, is 200, then subtracting 20 we get 180, then adding 32 we get 212, or just adding 30 we get 210 which is close enough for most purposes.

These kinds of ideas and techniques come up all the time. After a while you see right through the seemingly difficult to handle problem. The solution is just a matter of breaking the problem down into smaller pieces that are easy to calculate, then combining in the required manner.

The approximation of a square root using differentials is fairly easy too, i'll elaborate at another time if you have never done this before. After that we'll do partial differential equations in our heads (just kidding there)

 

[Ian Rogers]

As I said I love maths... Mainly geometry and trigonometry...

Percentages.... I would dearly love to know how to get back.... ie £100 + 10% = £110 but something like this.

25% off £100 is £75 BUT! £75 -> £100 is + 33%
Does my nut in....

I need 15% discount on goods... I have to use trial and error to find out that I need to add 17.6% so I know my un discounted price..

I need an equation!!

 

[strantor]

I am sort of taking your tone as condescension or patronizing. Not sure how to respond to your comment, but thanks.

Yes I have to agree after re-reading what I wrote. I worded that very badly from start to finish. I sincerely apologize.

The idea I was trying to convey is that each person has their own strong points and weak points.
In order to realize satisfaction in life it is usually ideal to choose a profession that complements our strong points; something that we're good at naturally.
That being said, we all have the choice to choose the profession that we wish, even if it demands a skill from our weak areas.
If we should choose that option demanding a weak skill, we will be constantly reminded of our shortcoming, which could lead to an unfairly low self evaluation.
If we should choose that option demanding a weak skill, in time we will inevitably find creative ways around our shortcoming, and become successful by unorthodox methods.

I take it you chose that second option. You chose Engineering when you knew it was math-intensive, and you knew you weren't good at math.
You were in 3rd grade in '60s, which makes you 55-65 years old, and assuming you went straight to college after HS, you've probably been an Engineer about 40 years.
In 40 years of doing something that requires a weak skill, you must have already figured out all the work-arounds.
You're probably just as good an Engineer as anybody else here or anywhere, despite your shortcoming. And you probably worked harder than most to get where you are.
If I was in your position I would be damn proud of myself, not dwelling on 40 y/o spilled milk.

 

[ronsimpson]

I was very surprised to read your post

I once got a job because of two factors.
>I learned what the company did, what parts they used, and studied data books on those parts.
>>I know that a CD4011B is a quad 2 input NAND. B=buffer, supply range, output current/resistance, Max input current. etc...
>I carried a little red dictionary in my back pocket. I had the only job application with no spelling errors. LOL
>>The Job before that I had the company security check my application for errors then I rewrote it.

At work, if you make enemies, they will pick on your weaknesses. If you make friends they will cover your back. Those who pick on everyone are little people and there is a special place in hell for them. Stay away.

 

[spec]

As I said I love maths... Mainly geometry and trigonometry...

Percentages.... I would dearly love to know how to get back.... ie £100 + 10% = £110 but something like this.

25% off £100 is £75 BUT! £75 -> £100 is + 33%
Does my nut in....

I need 15% discount on goods... I have to use trial and error to find out that I need to add 17.6% so I know my un discounted price..

I need an equation!!

Hi Ian,

Is this any help:

((100-%)/100) * P= Pd

(100/(100-%)) * Pd= P

Where:
%= discount
P= price
Pd= discount price

spec

 

[spec]

At work, if you make enemies, they will pick on your weaknesses. If you make friends they will cover your back. Those who pick on everyone are little people and there is a special place in hell for them. Stay away.

This is the core problem with life in general. It all ends up with personalities rather than facts. As a result the product or service suffers. I have read many books about engineering projects/military campaigns and it has very often been personalities that have made a mess of things. In some cases with the subsequent loss of thousands of lives.

The trouble is that the competents scare the pants off the incompetents, mainly because they are petrified of being found out.

I did a small company funded private venture project, the output of which was a cost critical product. I had done a budget, down to the last resistor but when I presented the data to management they decided they were going to get one of their marketing men to do the estimate. They more or less implied that an engineer would not know anything about estimating.

A couple of days later this high flying marketeer came to see me. He was patronizing and full of bluster and gave the impression that it was a bit demeaning having to deal with a mere engineer. After a week he produced a a very impressive document. When I had a look at the bottom line it was about 50% higher than my estimate so I tried to figure out why. This was totally impossible from the breakdown in the report which, as far as I could decipher, bore no resemblance to the actual product.

There was a hell of a stink about the high price and I got blamed for the design being too expensive. But I knew the Managing Director and explained the situation to him. Almost immediately things changed and the marketing guy came to see me in a state of high anxiety and asked me to re do the estimate with him. While I did this I found that he did not have a clue, and he was a highly paid highly respected member of the marketing department, with a fancy company car and generous expense account.

From this point on the marketing guy bore a big grudge and never failed to take a pop at me. The most blatent was when I was at a marketing meeting which he had organized. He said effectively that everyone was invited to lunch in the executive restaurant... except engineering.