Hi,
We're very new to the world of custom PCB but have created a piece of hardware (custom PCB) and "outsourced" that PCB design to another company because it is not our main focus. Our focus being the business logic that runs on the hardware.
We've given him the necessary input on the high-level component choices and the overal archictecture (an AVR based microcontroller with a gprs module). Nothing too fancy.
After some requirements gathering sessions we concluded on a set of requirements that we wanted to see in the design.
After having gone through the design with the PCB designer we placed an order for the first 5 prototypes.
As we're new to all of this , we did stumble upon a couple of things that we find "strange" :
1. The PCB designer who is using Altium Designer (as many designers do) only wants to release electronic files that allow us to "reproduce" the current PCB design. He refers to Gerber files that can be sent to a manufacturer.
He's not willing to deliver Eagle files or Altium project files that would allows us to make changes to the design .
2. The PCB designer feels that giving the project files violates his intellectual property. We find this strange as he has no use for our hardware product, and the only reason he would opt to not give us the project files is to force us to stay in business with him, even for the smallest design change.
3. The PCB designer cannot guarantee in any way that the first 5 prototypes will work at all. We're charged additional fees to get the board verified electronically (simply verifying that the thing won't blow up when applying power). If for some reasons the prototypes fail to work the design needs to be re-visitied (again additional fees) and new prototypes need to be delivered.
We're relatively new to the whole custom PCB world but I was wondering if this was normal behavior. Is it true that the Gerber files only allow us to reproduce the existing design without making changes to it ? Is it normal that a PCB designer never releases his project files ?
You need to find out whether the design cost included the rights to the altium files. As a programmer I can design and sell a program to a client... But I purchased the compiler so unless they by the source code... All they get is the hex files... Find out how much the schematic and PCB design will cost you.....
This usually is negotiable, otherwise look for a more "flexible" PCB design service.
The PCB designer usually is not responsible for the electronic design, only the board design (component placement, routing) and production of the manufacturing files. But these things should be done in collaboration with the Electronic Design Engineer throughout the PCB design process.
Its true that gerber files will allow you to have any decent board fab house fabricate the board for you.
But you'll also need a drill file and aperature file. The file will need to be in a specific gerber format.
This item is usually specified and agreed upon in the contract agreement.
Yep, and you get one copy of the schematic on dissolve-able paper, right?the OP said:We've agreed to get the following files from the designer :
- gerber files
- pick & place files
- drill files
- bom list
- schematic
Yep, and you get one copy of the schematic on dissolve-able paper, right?
Just saying that you could get the schematic in multiple formats such as paper, pdf, dxf, HPGL etc.
BOM list - again a paper copy, right?
Somebody can screw you and give you a gerber format that isn;t wildly supported.
Gerbers can, apparently be edited, but very rudimently. They could be converted to PDF or even DXF. Some savy person could probably use a DXF file and place it on a a layer with some transparency and reproduce the routing, so it's better than just having a board reverse-engineered.
For us the requirement was clear : make sure we have all the design artifacts that allow us to not only reproduce the design, but also modify it.
In which case you should have specified that in the contract (and paid a LOT more), the PCB designer seems to be completely in the right - likewise I don't supply source code files for any work I do, only HEX files - if the customer wanted the source code he would have to pay for it.
In which case you should have specified that in the contract (and paid a LOT more), the PCB designer seems to be completely in the right - likewise I don't supply source code files for any work I do, only HEX files - if the customer wanted the source code he would have to pay for it.
This is the way I ran my business.
Ensure that the specification document that you put out to tender for quotation is water tight and covers ALL the documentation and intellectual property rights you expect from the completed work.
Check that the written formal quotation you receive back, includes ALL the items required by your specification.
Eric
hi Davy,
Like you, I learned the hard way with out-sourcing design work., do it 'in house' whenever possible.
Put your lawyers hat on when dealing with design specifications.
A guide would be to look a the spec's documentation prepared by other successful companies.
caveat emptor
Eric
I was kinda expecting these scenarios when out-sourcing design to big companies or when moving to off-shore countries, not with the friendly local PCB designer who has nothing to gain from this behavior except to screw us over.
For example, "the designer delivers all design artifacts in electronic format to reproduce the PCB" . For us that meant all the files, including the design files. At that point we didn't know that this was only the files to reproduce the current design.
Not really, it's HIS PCB design, you expect it to become YOUR PCB design without paying substantially for the rights to it?.
Presumably this is for a commercial project?, which you will be selling - assuming you sell via a wholesaler you're not going to provide the wholesaler with all the design details so they can start making them themselves are you? - it's a similar situation, the total design is YOURS the PCB design is HIS.
Since you commissioned the design, you would already hold the design rights if you are in the UK, so would be entitled to the Altium files IMO.215 Ownership of design right.
(1)The designer is the first owner of any design right in a design which is not created in pursuance of a commission or in the course of employment.
(2)Where a design is created in pursuance of a commission, the person commissioning the design is the first owner of any design right in it.
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