Our PCB designer won't give us his project files (Altium / Eagle)

alec_t said:

Further to my last post, here's what the UK law (Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988) on designs is:

Since you commissioned the design, you would already hold the design rights if you are in the UK, so would be entitled to the Altium files IMO.

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I'm from Belgium. There is a law regarding copyright of computer software, where it states that "if it is the result of an own intellectual creator of the author" then it is protected.

Now, do these Altium files fall in the category computer software ?
Is it the result of his own intellectual creation ? (we've provided the core components, an early prototype, test-software, design feedback.....).

ericgibbs said:

hi alec,
I dont think Davey is having a problem with the design rights as such, as I understand it, its what he expected to get supplied from the party laying out the artwork for the price he agreed to pay.?

E

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I simply expected the right to have complete control over the design. I also expect to sell the thing (once manufactured) without having to pay license fees to the designer.

I mean, if the designer states that all IP is his, what if the designer starts to sue us once the thing becomes successful, or demands some kind of licensing agreement.

We simply contracted the guy to do a PCB design and deliver some prototypes. Again, this is not a big company with big interests somewhere of heavy investments in this design. He simply executed.

If I hire a consultant to develop a piece of software, I also expect the get the software and expect to have the code. Imagine getting a screenshot of the code, but no right to get the actual files to change them. To me it still seems absurd. Also, I still don't see any added value for him to not release it.

Obviously, looking back at it now I would have created some kind of contract where I explicitly states all of this.

Unless there has been any explicit assignment of rights relating to all or part of the design I would have expected the rights in all materials (files/prints/data/software) produced as a direct consequence of creating the commissioned design to belong to the person commissioning the design. Of course, that's only my understanding of the law and Belgian law may well differ from UK law in this area.

Now, do these Altium files fall in the category computer software ?

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Interesting question. Copyright raises its ugly head here. Altium itself is clearly software, which is subject to copyright protection (as are databases), but I'm unclear where the law stands in relation to data (other than databases) manipulated or produced by software such as Altium.

One thing, I will throw in, is the price of Altium: **broken link removed**

So, it's not cheap. It's LIKELY the version of Altium used can only import lower versions to a point.

I am one of the 3 people who commissioned this design together with Davy. As he said we are fairly new at all of this. The way it is now is that we have signed 2 orders in which it states that he retains the IP untill the invoice is fully payed. However he refers to an external document which we haven't signed which is called terms of sale. Which states that he retains all IP and delivers only the files to reproduce. Now we haven't got any garantee from him that the design will work as is. So the gerbers are potentially useless. In a mail we have asked him upon payment for the electronic files and schematics as deliverables.
So it's all a bit confusing since we didn't use the right terminology and didn't know that gerbers are not exactly the electronic files we need. But it doesnt seem right to me that he would be able make us stay with him for whatever invoice he makes in the future. As you can see we are a hostage of the design here.

Davy De Waele said:

Just like when I ask for a logo I get the PSDs, if I ask for a website I get the HTMLs, if I ask for a piece of software I get the code.

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For a website you get the HTML, because that's what is actually run, there's no other option - but you probably don't get any other files that were sued to create the HTML (if any).

For software I would have thought it's VERY, VERY unlikely you would get the source code (you wouldn't from me, or anyone else I know) unless you've specifically contracted to do so (and paid considerably more for it) - you would usually get either the executable code (for a PC) or the HEX file for a micro-controller.

As an occasional developer and software writer I support anything I write, you can't do that if the customer has the source code and changes it - making it look like an error on your part.

Nigel Goodwin said:

For a website you get the HTML, because that's what is actually run, there's no other option - but you probably don't get any other files that were sued to create the HTML (if any).

For software I would have thought it's VERY, VERY unlikely you would get the source code (you wouldn't from me, or anyone else I know) unless you've specifically contracted to do so (and paid considerably more for it) - you would usually get either the executable code (for a PC) or the HEX file for a micro-controller.

As an occasional developer and software writer I support anything I write, you can't do that if the customer has the source code and changes it - making it look like an error on your part.

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In both these cases you would expect to get a working deliverable upon the specifications that were set, this is not the case in our story. We are stuck with him for whatever he deems fit to charge to get the prototypes validated and working.

No.. I don't think so... If he is commission by you to provide a PCB and it fails to work... Then he is obliged to make good the circuit, not you!!! Earlier you mentioned that you have the rights to the schematic... Is this the case?

We put in our correspondence via email that we need him to supply as deliverables :
quote :

• complete BOM lijst
• Schematics (elektronical format)
• 5 Prototypes

You say he is obligated to make a good circuit but does this mean he can ask the same amount of money as we payed for the design and prototypes itself, without being able to consult anyone else?

If you employed this person to design a PCB on your behalf, there would be a certain route to take..

He designs a PCB..
You have a prototype built..
He test the prototype for errors..

... Here we hit the snag....
If there are errors, he designs a new PCB
You have another prototype built.
He test the prototype for errors.

If he is worth his salt, the job will be finished here...
If not you may go through a third PCB process.

If this is the route... You pay for the original design..
You then have the prototype / s built.. ( You pay again )

Once the process is done and you're happy... He coughs up the files required and the IP if that's what you paid for.

I work through a PCB Flow soldering company... I do the design, they do ALL the leg work. Prototypes etc..
I usually get it right first time ( now we have simulators and schematic to PCB tools ) It's unusual that I go to a second prototype...

If you have agreed to have the PCB prototypes built then he must be waiting for the new PCB to arrive so he can check that it works ok...

alec_t said:

Further to my last post, here's what the UK law (Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988) on designs is:

Since you commissioned the design, you would already hold the design rights if you are in the UK, so would be entitled to the Altium files IMO.

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hmmm...i dont know about that..

I mean...I feel that Davey owns the circuit design but because nothing was specifically identified by contract...i don't know.

If one puts their lawyer hat on.....what constitutes the design?

Does the statement refer to the PCB design? or the circuit design? or?

So the important point here is that clairification of the generalities of the law need to be specifically covered by contract agreement..otherwise your faced with convincing authorites to, instead, "take your word for it".

eT

How did you explain your idea to him?

Mike.

KeepItSimpleStupid said:

One thing, I will throw in, is the price of Altium: **broken link removed**

So, it's not cheap. It's LIKELY the version of Altium used can only import lower versions to a point.

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I really fail to see how the price of the Altium product relates to him releasing the files. The 2 are complete un-related.

I'm not asking for a license of the Altium product, merely the files produced by the designer.

Same story with the logo. Photoshop is also an expensive program, but I have never seen a designer complaining about releasing PSD files just because he paid a lot of money for the software to produce them.

In the meantime we've sorted everything out with the PCB designer. He can relate to our position (us being a tech company wanting complete ownership) and has agreed to deliver the files. He also clearly explained how the Altium design files are structured and what would be delivered to us.

I guess it's all about clearly communicating what you expect. For me it seemed natural that I was to be the owner of the design and get all files that go with it. For others clearly it's not. Best thing is to do is obviously negotiate all of these things up-front and put them in writing, but sometimes, due to lack of knowledge /terminology these things can get missed.

Fortunately for us our PCB designer was able to relate to our position and we've sorted everything out.

Fortunately for us our PCB designer was able to relate to our position and we've sorted everything out.

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hi Davey,
Thats good to hear.

As they say, verbal specifications are not worth the paper they are written on.

Eric

Ian Rogers said:

No.. I don't think so... If he is commission by you to provide a PCB and it fails to work... Then he is obliged to make good the circuit, not you!!!

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Well, the current orders that were placed were a PCB design and 5 prototypes based on that design. My guess is that the PCB design is done on a "best effort" basis, using all best practices and done in the most professional way.

However I can imagine that at this stage it is impossible to say 100% that the design will work once produced. It's not the same as piece of software you've written and have unit tested 100%.

I guess some errors might only show up once you create an initial prototype.

Now, as far as these prototypes go, I can also imagine that it is difficult to claim or guarantee that these prototypes will work.

Perhaps during manufacturing we'll see some flaws in the design. The prototypes also include a GPRS module + internal antenna, and as far as I know this alone is all very specific and error prone stuff.

So I can relate to some degree that the initial prototypes might still contain errors and will need some patching. (breaking a routes, or re-routing something with a wire, applying an external antenna if the matching of the internal antenna was off, .......)

I think I understand now that for a designer it is very difficult to guarantee with a 100% certainty that the first protoypes based on the design will work.

You also mention this in another post. Usually you get it right the first time, but sometimes you might need a small re-design and new prototypes. Obviously if the second batch fails you would need a sit-down to avoid this becoming a never-ending story. But at some point you simply need to trust the good intentions and professionalism of the designer.

Ian Rogers said:

Earlier you mentioned that you have the rights to the schematic... Is this the case?

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What is the difference between the schematic and the design ? For me those are the same. Guess I still need to do my homework on that one.

the OP said:

I really fail to see how the price of the Altium product relates to him releasing the files. The 2 are complete un-related.

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You had mentioned that YOU wanted to make changes and I took that literally. I just mentioned the cost of the software and not the training to use it.

the OP said:

What is the difference between the schematic and the design ?

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A tough one, but I will take a stab. Let's just say we had a schematic of some programmed embedded controller. Could someone else reproduce it? Nope?
Let's say there was a selected component which I would call design oriented. By selected, I mean certain parameters are exploited and tested and verified during the build. This happened a lot in Tektronix equipment. Design: specifications, notes, stuff to be able to change and reproduce it. Schematics don't contain fully specified BOM's either. Darn, I remember, things like R1, IK and not say R1, 1K, 10% non-inductive, SPC p/n xyz

Now, let's ask: Is there enough information for someone who has say signed an NDA, to fix one of these gizmos? Are they throw away? Who is going to fix them? Will there be a service manual?

Good to know your designer has offered you the files.
For future contracts it might be worth consulting/employing someone skilled in contract law.

I think that if there are problems in the files, it's cheaper to re-hire the same designer to make small changes than to buy Altium and do the changes by yourself.

Sorry...post withdrawn.

NorthGuy said:

I think that if there are problems in the files, it's cheaper to re-hire the same designer to make small changes than to buy Altium and do the changes by yourself.

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If you have the Altium files, you can hire a better designer to do the fixes.