PSU plus battery?

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An LM317 has a quiescent current of 10mA so, no, it won't last for that long.
 
Hero999 said:
An LM317 has a quiescent current of 10mA so, no, it won't last for that long.

As it's only in use for a few seconds at a time, then it lasts for ages - as long as you only power it when you're using it.
 
Tomble said:
Hmm. Does that mean this is like a particular "stuff blowing up" type threshold whereas the usual 13.5V isn't such a big deal?
14V is listed under the "Absolute Maximum Ratings" which means, yes, exceed this level and there is no guarantee that the PIC won't be damaged.
Tomble said:
First chip I tried, in the first programmer I built (not my own design and didn't work for me) was using LVP
I don't really like LVP either because it leaves the PIC more vulnerable to going into programming mode accidentally as opposed to one with the LVP bit disabled.
AudioGuru's idea of using 2 9volt batts and the LM317 is a good one as long as you switch it off either automatically (Maybe control a transistor switch from the programmer's switched Vdd line to turn it on/off) or manually. (another pole on the programmers power switch)
You could also build a simple voltage doubler (running from the 12V supply) using a 555 oscillator and a couple of diodes and caps to feed the LM317.
 
audioguru said:
Use two 9V alkaline batteries in series and an LM317 voltage regulator adjusted for an output ov 13V.
*blink* Damn, why didn't I think of that?! That's quite compelling... although it does lack the "I don't have to build anything at all" factor, and I think I'd probably still need to use the 5V SMPSU (but in parallel this time): Unlike with the 15V brick, I don't think I'd want to hang a 7805 off a pair of PP3s to get the power needed for the rest of the circuit (maybe 100mA or something?), I think that would drain them pretty quick by comparison. I'll keep it in mind though, especially for fussier chips than the 12F6.

In the longer term I'd much prefer to be able to just use one of the bricks alone; once I've got everything else working, I could more reliably figure out how much actual headroom I'd have, as I'd have real figures for the load (see below) and I could probably make a more trustworthy voltmeter using the PIC ADC, a zener reference and the little 7-segment displays I've got. Knowledge is power
audioguru said:
(only 0.5mA?)
Well probably not that little, and as I say, that's just for the 13V Vpp; 5V Vdd OTOH will be what's actually powering the chip itself and almost all of the programmer circuits, hence the use of either a 7805 or the 5V SMPSU brick. I'd imagine Vdd might draw somewhere between 50mA and 300mA but I don't have any figures- I never found any for how much a PIC consumes during programming (compared to in general use), and there's still the rest of the circuit. I think actual empirical measurement would be the best bet on this.

By "maybe a tenth of that" re 0.5mAH, I meant that 5mA was probably more than would be needed for Vpp and 5 minutes was probably much longer than a programming session (ISTR 1 minute being quoted somewhere, and Nigel claims "seconds" which'd be nice). The Vpp pin of the controllers has been said to have leakage of about 0.5mA in that context, but I'd expect my design for the switch for it to leak somewhat more than that.
 
philba said:
What is the concern about oscillation of a linear vreg? low load?
Eh, there was an element of that, but I figured I could solve that with just an extra resistor in parallel The main issues were (deep breath):

-For the LM317, the dropout is generally listed as around 2V or so, somewhat less if it's hot or is using little current (factors which sadly don't tend to go together!!); The big PSU brick that I refer to as "about 15V" is really rated at 13V@2A, but merely happens to give more when it doesn't have as much load. I can't really trust it to be above 15V in use, especially when I don't know how much the programmer will draw and my voltmeter is somewhat skewed. So I'd expect a good chance of dropout there- hardly a certainty, but not something I could reasonably rule out. I'm not certain if dropout leads to oscillation, but regardless it seems something to avoid. I should be able to test this later though.

-I'm not buying any more components if I can possibly possibly avoid it-I've kinda drawn a line in the sand by now. I'm probably more of a Scrooge than Audioguru there My inner miser will not allow me to spend £5 or so for delivery of one 10p component, and I know that if I go to buy one thing, I'll want to buy a ton of other things that I feel I need too, etc- I know this because the list is already huge Can't afford to right now, so by refusing to buy anything more, I've been exercising my ingenuity, knowledge, etc rather than my wallet

-The obvious answer to the potentially low headroom would be an LDO or quasi-LDO regulator, but I haven't got one already and as you see, will not buy one if I can avoid it. So the plan WAS to try to build one of my own, with a 358 op-amp, a 3v6 zener, and a few resistors and transistors I've worked out a few different designs for these, but have little confidence in their stability, and even less in my capacity to work out the bode plot for them!! My best guess is that I could try sticking in a pole at about 0.1Hz and then maybe a zero at around 10Hz, and forget about having any sort of bandwidth, relying instead on the capacitor for filling in transients. I still feel like I'm in way over my head with this part though, I don't even know how I'd put poles and zeroes into the circuit! As I said, I'm not too good with the AC side of things. It'd be interesting to try once I can check if it works as intended though

I've been wrestling with this one (on and off, I do other things too!) for some months now, and as you can imagine I'd now much rather put it aside for the time being and simply start off with something quick-and-dirty that I can make work and then just dismantle again once it's served its purpose.

If I had a stopgap power+Vpp board, I could program up some chips to help check all sorts of things: the total programmer load, various voltages, and testing for signs of bad oscillation (like big spikes and dips) in any prototype LDO. I could probably do some of those things without any PICs too, but I'd much rather do them with Then I can make a good, informed decision about a replacement power board.
 
Why not try looking at what other circuits use?, like the P16PRO40 (and others) that you can look at on my website - it would be 'unusual' to use an LM317.
 
A PIC is Cmos. Cmos draws a very low supply current when its outputs don't supply a lot of current to loads.
A PIC would smoke and melt if its supply current is as high as 200mA and it might catch on fire if the current is 300mA.

Use two 9V batteries with an LM317 for the 13VDC programming voltage and use a third 9V battery with a low-dropout 5V regulator to power the PIC.
 
Well I'd rather use a 555 voltage doubler and add a regulator to the output for the programming voltage.
 
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