Renault master won't start

camerart · May 8, 2014

picbits said:
You say you replaced the battery - don't discount receiving a duff battery from the supplier - often they sit on the shelves for months.

Worth checking the battery voltage while attempting to turn over the engine - if it is ok, then read the voltage between the live wire on the solenoid and battery ground.

Lastly double check any engine grounds as a failed ground strap can also cause this kind of issue.

Brand new battery from Renault, it was charged before I put it in, and a quick 'spark' test and voltage reading shows it's fine.

I got a couple of jump leads from the battery, to the body of the motor, and the wire going into the motor, after the solenoid. slight spark, but not enough to turn the motor.

camerart · May 8, 2014

Mickster said:
The solenoid on the starter has 3 connections, with the starter body being ground via a grounding strap to the chassis.(as picbits posted whilst I was typing).
The two large connections are for battery +ve supply and the starter motor +ve supply.
The third, smaller, connection is the trigger for the solenoid. The solenoid is also grounded through the starter body.
Shorting the smaller connection to the battery +ve supply connection should turn the starter motor.
If it doesn't turn, but just clicks, it's most likely that the solenoid contacts have burnt out, or are very dirty. (or a very poor contact on the ground strap)
If it doesn't click, it's most likely that the solenoid coil winding is open-circuit, or the ground strap is open circuit.

Not being up to speed on diagnostics, if you read what I did in the previous answer above this one. I noticed the 3rd smaller 'trigger' wire was corroded when I disconnected it., so I am not sure whether the solenoid was working, but as I said +V to the motor and 0V to the motor body didn't turn it.

camerart · May 8, 2014

Now I'm trying to remove the unit, but I'm having difficulty undoing the bottom nut. I can't see it, but I can get a socket on it. My problem is, that my ratchet hasn't got enough room to ratchet. I think I need a special joint to move the ratchet up and sideways. Also a better ratchet would help with finer clicks. Mine's old!

Mickster · May 8, 2014

Ah ok then, the motor itself is at fault.
Since I changed jobs, my GM login has been disabled and I no longer have access to the site. (Movano is the same)
I didn't do much on vans, so would have to look it up.
Sorry.

camerart · May 9, 2014

Things are pointing towards a brushes/commutator problem.

Camerart

JimB · May 9, 2014

"Pointing towards"

Don't you just love the British trait of understating a problem!

JimB

camerart · May 9, 2014

JimB said:
The quick answer is yes, new starter motor.

The longer answer, if you have a few tools and a sense of adventure - repair the starter motor.
At a quick guess, the brushes are very worn and not making good contact any more.
If you are lucky the commutator will just need a good clean, rather than skimming in a lathe.
New brushes £10
New starter motor £200 ?

JimB

As there are different version of the assembly, I thought I would start at the Renault dealer, but even they weren't sure. A new assembly £269 I didn't even ask about VAT.

Actually the brushes and commutator, have lots of life left in then, but have seized up with rust. So I think a clean and new brushes will be ok. Are all brushes the same quality, or should I go to Renault, I don't want to do this again for along time.

Cheers, Camerart.

JimB · May 9, 2014

Are all brushes the same quality, or should I go to Renault

I don't know and no.

What I suggest is that you find an auto electrical specialist and ask for some brushes for the Renault Master.
The starter is probably a part which is common to several vehicles and the specialists will just look up the brushes in a parts book and charge you £10-20 rather that £269 +20%

JimB

camerart · May 10, 2014

JimB said:
I don't know and no.

What I suggest is that you find an auto electrical specialist and ask for some brushes for the Renault Master.
The starter is probably a part which is common to several vehicles and the specialists will just look up the brushes in a parts book and charge you £10-20 rather that £269 +20%

JimB

I've found some, for under £10, but looking closer, they need welding. soldering wouldn't be any good. It might be wiser to pay for a new assembly, at least it would have new bearings too.

Camerart.

JimB · May 10, 2014

I've found some, for under £10, but looking closer, they need welding. soldering wouldn't be any good.

I had the same situation when I repaired the starter in my late lamented Vitara, I had to cut the old brushes out of the starter, and then solder the new ones to where the old ones were connected.

Admittedly if one is going to run the starter until it is smoking hot, then welding is the way to go.
But in reality, for a starter which is only going to run for five seconds at a time, soldering is no problem. Certainly was no problem for me.

JimB

Edited to add, of course it needs a serious soldering iron, the one you use for circuit boards just won't cut it!

camerart · May 10, 2014

JimB said:
I had the same situation when I repaired the starter in my late lamented Vitara, I had to cut the old brushes out of the starter, and then solder the new ones to where the old ones were connected.

Admittedly if one is going to run the starter until it is smoking hot, then welding is the way to go.
But in reality, for a starter which is only going to run for five seconds at a time, soldering is no problem. Certainly was no problem for me.

JimB

Edited to add, of course it needs a serious soldering iron, the one you use for circuit boards just won't cut it!

JimB,

I really don't want to do this again, and I've found : **broken link removed**
which is tempting. I don't know the quality of this item, but it looks the same.

Regarding soldering, I considered it, and it might be ok, I also have some silver solder, if I can find the correct flux. I'll give it a clean and have a think.

Cheers, Camerart.

JimB · May 10, 2014

Fair enough, £85 is a lot better than £269 +VAT.

Have fun with the spanners!

JimB

camerart · May 10, 2014

JimB said:
Fair enough, £85 is a lot better than £269 +VAT.

Have fun with the spanners!

JimB

Does it sound too good to be true? How can you trust ebay sources? I might buy it, they seem to have good feedback!

Got to have fun with a wire brush next they're goggles not sun glasses.

Camerart.

camerart · May 12, 2014

I've re-built the old one and I guess it has 4ish years left in it, so it's in the spares bucket!

For anyone having this problem, here is my explanation how to diagnose what's wrong:

With this type of starter assembly, which has a solenoid, that moves the motor gear against the flywheel gear.

The motor is grounded to the engine and the engine is grounded to the chassis, which is connected to the negative terminal of the battery.
A large red cable is connected to the solenoid, and a second large cable goes from the solenoid to the motor.
On the solenoid is a third smaller wire coming from the starter key, when 12V is at this connector, the solenoid switches on the motor.

Make sure the motor is properly grounded, check cables, also 12V is at the red cable. Check all connectors.

Testing the motor. With jump leads, negative to the starter motor body, and 12V to the motor side red connector. The motor should spin, but not engage the gears.
Testing the solenoid, negative to the motor side red connection, 12V to the small solenoid connector and the solenoid should click.

I hope this is correct, and helps someone.

Camerart.

Mickster · May 12, 2014

camerart said:
Testing the solenoid, negative to the motor side red connection, 12V to the small solenoid connector and the solenoid should click.
I hope this is correct, and helps someone.

Not quite.
Negative to the starter motor body and 12V to the small solenoid connector.

Regards.

camerart · May 12, 2014

Mickster said:
Not quite.
Negative to the starter motor body and 12V to the small solenoid connector.

Regards.

If you look at#25 you will see the state of the brushes, which doesn't allow the current to go through the solenoid, my method isolates the solenoid.
Cheers, Camerart.

Mickster · May 12, 2014

The quick and dirty method for testing a starter, is to put the negative jump lead on the body and the positive on the solenoid trigger terminal.
If the solenoid doesn't click, it's defective.
If the solenoid clicks and engages the pinion, put the positive onto the supply terminal and bridge the supply to the trigger terminal with a big screwdriver.
The starter motor should engage the pinion and turn.
If the motor doesn't turn, you can check for dirty/burnt solenoid contacts by bridging the main supply & motor terminals.
Takes only a few seconds.

Regards.

camerart · May 13, 2014

Mickster said:
The quick and dirty method for testing a starter, is to put the negative jump lead on the body and the positive on the solenoid trigger terminal.
If the solenoid doesn't click, it's defective.
If the solenoid clicks and engages the pinion, put the positive onto the supply terminal and bridge the supply to the trigger terminal with a big screwdriver.
The starter motor should engage the pinion and turn.
If the motor doesn't turn, you can check for dirty/burnt solenoid contacts by bridging the main supply & motor terminals.
Takes only a few seconds.

Regards.

Your method tests both parts, the method in #34, tests each part separately.

Mickster · May 13, 2014

camerart said:
Your method tests both parts, the method in #34, tests each part separately.

No it doesn't test each part separately.
From post #34:

camerart said:
Testing the solenoid, negative to the motor side red connection, 12V to the small solenoid connector and the solenoid should click.

Your current path is through the motor wire, through the brushes/armature/windings, to ground (motor body) and then through the solenoid winding.
This is not testing each item separately.

I do not know of anyone who has ever tested this way, although I may be missing something.

camerart · May 13, 2014

Mickster said:
No it doesn't test each part separately.
From post #34:

Your current path is through the motor wire, through the brushes/armature/windings, to ground (motor body) and then through the solenoid winding.
This is not testing each item separately.

I do not know of anyone who has ever tested this way, although I may be missing something.

Yes, you are missing something!I pointed out that there was no current through the motor when I showed you the photo of the brushes. To test the solenoid the negative jump lead (Or wire) to the wire between the solenoid and the motor and the positive wire to the small connector on the solenoid.

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