TEG question

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tempus

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Hey all;
What happens to the electricity a thermoelectric generator produces when it isn't being used? I'm talking about this kind of thing: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/TEC1-12703-...LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aff17c41d&_uhb=1.

I understand that current is drawn, not pushed, but if you had something like this connected to an LED through a switch, and you switched the LED off, would there somehow be a buildup of electricity on one side of the generator that would need to be siphoned off, since electricity would continue to be produced?

Thanks
 
Sounds like a misunderstanding translation of words. That is a peltier junction module. It is NOT meant to be a power generator; It is a clever device that will get hot on one side and cool on the other side when it is tied to a DC potential. It has many uses.
 
Right, but if you make one side hotter than the other, current flows, producing electricity. There are a number of demonstrations of this on YouTube, among other places.
 
Right, but if you make one side hotter than the other, current flows, producing electricity. There are a number of demonstrations of this on YouTube, among other places.

A thermocouple produces electrical energy from heat by outputing a voltage. If there is a conduction path, then charge will flow and current will exist to form a circuit. This circuit will dissipate energy as heat and work. Current exists, but it does not flow. Electricity is a broad indefinite word that needs to be qualified so folks know what you mean.

Ratch
 
When a current is flowing, heat is transferred across the junctions. If you stop the current then (a little) less heat will flow. In reverse, if you wrap a peltier device in insulation then the current will decrease as the temperature difference increases.

Mike.
 

Current exists and charge flows. Current flow means charge flow flow. Charge does not flow twice.

Ratch
 
I have no idea how that has any relevance to my post.

Mike.

The first clause of your first sentence says, "When a current is flowing". This means "When a charge flow is flowing", which is redundant and ridiculous. It should say "When charge is flowing", or "When current exists". A lot of folks and literature make this descriptive error.

Ratch
 
Sorry, thought this was an electronic forum and not a "let's be pedantic" forum. In my day a current flowed. Out of curiosity, how old are you that you've been taught this?

Also, I thought the subject of TEGs was far more interesting than some grammatical argument. Especially the fact that the current varied dependent on the thermal gradient.

Mike.
 
Let me try to clarify my question. If power is being generated by a TEG like it is in this video , is there a problem if the power being generated isn't used by some device? Would it somehow damage the TEG because of a buildup of too many electrons on the cold side? I guess a similar question could be asked about a solar panel - what if the solar panel is producing all kinds of power, but the power doesn't actually get used? Will this damage the solar cells somehow?
Thanks
 
Sorry, thought this was an electronic forum and not a "let's be pedantic" forum.

Correct definitions are always good no matter what the subject of the forum is.

In my day a current flowed.

Not really. Physics does not change.

Out of curiosity, how old are you that you've been taught this?

Irrelevant with respect to the subject.

Also, I thought the subject of TEGs was far more interesting than some grammatical argument. Especially the fact that the current varied dependent on the thermal gradient. Mike.

The grammar is OK, but the definition of electrical current is faulty. The electrical current behavior is the purpose of this thread, but good descriptions are beneficial.

Ratch
 

What happens to a fully energized battery that is not used? Does it explode? No, it keeps its voltage until it is deenergized. Power is energy stored or used per unit of time. If no energy is stored or used, then there is no power to worry about. If there is an accumulation of charge carriers on one side of a solar cell compared with the opposite side, then there will be a voltage difference. Like a battery or a capacitor, will that voltage difference be a problem? If so, why?

Ratch
 
You can also make an analogy with an electric generator. You can spin a generator with no load and it does not overheat or explode.

The OP's question is a good one because the question of what happens to the heat energy is probably at the center of the confusion. If you exert a force (or more accurately a torque) on an electric generator, and there is no load, then there is no electrical power generated because current can not exist (boy that sounds dumb, -sounds better when you say "can not flow", but anyway) with the circuit open. What happened to the mechanical energy you put in? Well, there is no problem because you did not put much energy (or mechanical power) in. The generator creates a back force when current is existing (ouch, that almost hurts my ears) in the generator windings. No current means much less back force which means much less mechanical power in. Remember power is torque times rotational speed. Energy conservation is satisfied.

For a TEC (TEG), we need to wonder about what happens to the heat flow (damned ... isn't "heat" the flow of internal energy? ... oh this is getting too hard). It's been about 20 years since I studied the physics of TECs so I may get some of this wrong, but basically there is a parasitic heat term that is considered in the analysis of TECs and there is the issue of the thermal conductivity across the the TEC from hot side to cold side. This (effective) conductivity is current dependent. When all is said and done, and you do a proper analysis on the energy/power, you will find energy is still conserved. If you let the current exist in the TEC, by closing the circuit, more heat flows from hot side to cold side, and parasitic heat will try to heat both sides. If you don't let current exist by opening the circuit, less heat flows from hot side to cold side. Note that either way heat is still flowing from hot side to cold side because that is a basic fact of thermodynamics. We are not putting energy in, so we can't expect to oppose the law of entropy on our closed system.

By the way, operation of the TEC generation requires adequate heat capacity and mass (thermal reservoirs) on both the hot side and the cold side, or the thermal gradient will be quickly reduced and little power will be generated. Hence, one is either using stored thermal energy as a temperature difference between hot and cold sides, or those reservoirs are being reenergized (heat flow from cold to hot side) by another energy source.
 
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I find it amusing that members are finding it difficult to post without using the current fashion of not saying current flow. Out of curiosity I found my first electrical engineering book (Electrical Technology fifth edition by Edward Hughes) and it states kirchoffs first law as "The total current flowing towards a node is equal to the total current flowing away from that node". The book was written in 1959 so was before the current "fashion".

Mike.
 

Yes, current flow was the incorrect descriptive. Another interesting factoid is that Ohm's law is a property of a material and not the resistance formula E=I*R. A lot of physics books say that is true.

Ratch
 
Nice pun!

Still, to Ratch, saying "current flow" is just as bad as wearing a tie with a polo shirt. ... He feels it will never be in style.

I would prefer a different word than flow also but it's not going to change anytime soon. 'Flow' always makes me think of the horrid water analogy when discussing electricity. A flow of electrons is NOT a flow of energy.
 
By the way, since these terminology comments are a bit off target of the OP's actual question, let me ask the OP, "is your question answered?.

While we wait for that answer, I'll make a comment about the terminology issue ...

To me there is a little bit of a difference between saying "current flow" and "current flows". The first one is a bigger sin in my eyes. To say "the current flow is 1 A" is really bad because you really are being completely redundant by saying "charge flow flow", which is redundant with no added benefit. It's best to get in the habit of saying "the current is 1 A".

However, when you say "the current flows into a node", the connotation is a bit different. Even though there is a redundancy in the statement, "charge flow" is a noun and "flows" is a verb, so saying "the charge flow flows into the node" is not quite as bad, and is just a natural way of speaking.

Perhaps it's better to say, "the current goes into the node" because it is less redundant and still flows naturally in speech.

Saying "the current is directed into the node" is more scientific sounding, but sounds a little bit stuffy in natural speech and might be fine in a book or paper. I have to say that saying "current exists" is very unnatural sounding and too awkward for my taste, and it does not work to say "the current exists into the node". Something is lost there. But, there are places where "current exists" works even if a bit awkward sounding. Some people prefer awkwardness over redundancy, and vice versa.

There are times when saying "the current circulates" is acceptable. This is providing more information than "flows" because it highlights the looping nature of current. That terminology can work well when talking about mesh currents. For example, "the mesh current I2 circulates counter clockwise in Fig 1" works very well.

The last thing to say is that even though saying "charge flow flow" is a minor sin, it is not as bad as using double negatives in speech. Double negatives actually change the meaning to the opposite of what you are trying to say, while redundancy still provides the same meaning.
 
steveB,

Saying current exists, current enters/leaves a node, current circulates around the loop, are all good grammatical constructions.

Ratch
 
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