This entitled world

gary350 said:

YES there is a lot of worthless junk crap being sold on the market that may have come from China.

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Says the man who buys his batteries Dollar General.

gary350 said:

Union workers feel entitled to work slow and get paid $85 per hour.

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Statements like that need some kind of corroboration. I worked at GM as a trades man, a die maker, the highest paying hourly job in the union. They must have been cheating me, no one ever made that kind of money, not those with a union job any how.

You and many people put down the unions, using unproven false narratives, of things that didn't/don't happen. All the while you don't ever complain about the outrageous money paid to CEOs or other top players in the company, ones who make nothing of profit for the company. If it wasn't for unions we would still be living in company houses and only able to buy in a company store.

There "in theory" is nothing wrong with unions to protect the common man! However! With power comes madness.. That's why prime ministers and presidents only have a small lifespan... Unionists are life members and they themselves become corrupt... As I say, Socialism is brilliant in theory..

We live in a communal world.. We kinda all sign up to this world, the alternative is to go sit in a cave in the hills.. OR go live in a communist or dictatorship environment.. You always need to look at the alternative... We are all lucky in the western world, we have a pretty good existence.. We can vote with our feet at the extreme.. Social media has brought that...

I was watching a program some time back... The current crisis in a eastern dictatorship... "Covid is rife, stay at home or you'll be shot"...

Okay! said country had a tiny outbreak, but come on....

Ian Rogers said:

There "in theory" is nothing wrong with unions to protect the common man! However! With power comes madness.. That's why prime ministers and presidents only have a small lifespan... Unionists are life members and they themselves become corrupt... As I say, Socialism is brilliant in theory..

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I'm not sure I can agree with that !
My Father was a staunch Unionist - he spent most of his working life as a District Officer for the National Union of Railwaymen; To my knowledge the only bit of madness he displayed was admitting to being my Father !
However, at the end of his career he became very disillusioned with the Trade Union movement - this was at the time of 'Red Robbo' at British Leyland and then Arthur Scargill and the miners; Discussion was to be avoided for fear of a tirade of forcefully expressed very strong views, but his lasting comment .. .. ' .. that's not what the unions were meant for .. !'

Ian Rogers said:

We live in a communal world.. We kinda all sign up to this world, the alternative is to go sit in a cave in the hills..

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.. .. .. .. or get married !

As for the consequences of our actions .. .. .. .. I do think we've moved a long way away from punishment as a deterrent; The old expression .. .. the punishment fits the crime .. .. has long gone.

Oh, by the way, Good Morning All .. .. ..

MM

Morning MM ... Unions are OK... The men who run them start the dictating.. They become a bit OTT on the side of the working man.

Take the Labour minister last week.. spouting £15 minimum wage.... Yeah, for artisans.. The local spot picker at Maccy'Ds can't have it.
There has to be some sort of arbitration body... Unions demands just never stop..

I think the unions are a necessary body in the world... Most "union" men are decent hard working folk...

Ian Rogers said:

Unions are OK... The men who run them start the dictating.. They become a bit OTT on the side of the working man.

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I think that was exactly the point my Father got so animated about;
Unions began life to protect employees from the unscrupulous employer - safe working conditions, work / life balance, holidays etc .. .. .. but these days it's nearly always a money issue ; not enough per hour, too much work for too little .. .. .. .. .

But .. .. . some years ago, as a fresh faced NQT, I was mentored by a Deputy Headteacher here in Birmingham; He suddenly disappeared and I was informed by the Headteacher that he had been suspended pending investigation of an allegation of some inappropriate sexual approaches to a female pupil; In that situation the suspended teacher is not allowed access to anything school related for evidence to support any defence and is therefore reliant on a Union Rep to make the enquiries on his behalf;
This particular case dragged on because the school made it as difficult as possible for the Union to achieve an impartial investigation. The guy had to leave his home because of locals & the press camping outside his front door; his wife decided there must be some truth to the allegations, so she left him and a divorce ensued which forced him to sell their home and divide the proceeds; the two daughters had to move to new schools because once they'd been identified they were bullied by their peers;
Finally, at a disciplinary hearing the Union Rep produced some evidence of previous allegations made by the same pupil at another school and under pressure the pupil broke down and admitted that she had made a false allegation because the Deputy Head had issued a detention for failing to produce homework.

The case was thrown out and as he left the hearing a member of the press congratulated him and asked if he was pleased that he could return to normal .. .. .. .. . his reply .. .. normal ? I've lost my job, lost my wife, lost my daughters, lost my home & lost my dignity .. .. .. .. . how can I return to normal ?
A few days later he was found on the railway tracks in Saltley after impact with an overnight goods train.

That's what Unions are for .. .. .. .

MM

So we agree.... Life sucks.. But not as much as some...

Thank dog we no longer live in 70's Britain world of union domination.

Three stories all either they happened to me, or I have first hand knowledge because I was there at the time albeit on the periphery.

My elder brother worked for a local evening newspaper delivering the papers to small village shops and the like. During summer holidays he would let me ride along to help with loading/unloading. We turned up to the plant to pick up a batch and got caught up in a wildcat strike. We spent 36 hours unable to leave because the pickets were smashing vehicles and aggressively jostling anyone leaving who didn't carry a union card. The cause? A naive new starter from the "offices" had been sent down to the factory floor to enquire why the priniting presses had not been started, He discovered that the one guy -- from the appropriate union -- who was employed soley to push the bitton to start the presses has been knocked off his bike and taken to hospital. The naive idiot pressed the button.

I was 16, working as a fitter's assistant to a ducting engineer. We gone to the paper mills at Frogmore End to fit some new ducting. As we went in he noticed the factory had the old round pin mains plugs not the newer rectangular pin ones. He ask me to switch the plug on his drill for the round pin plug in his toolbag whilst he went to get some more stuff from the van. I was sat cross legged on the floor changing the plug when a guy walking past said "Electrician are you"? To which I replied, "Nah, we here to fit some ducting.", and though no more of it. 5 minutes later 10,000 people walk out on strike because I was stealing work from a union man.

A couple of years later I was an apprentice at a car company. I was in the body shop about 11am on a Tuesday morning when the track came to a halt, a siren sounded and everyone downed tools and started heading for the carpark. I overheard one guy say to another: "Must be a sunny day outside". And it was.

Unions serve a valueable purpose; but that purpose is easily and often subverted.

In the early 1900s Unions were needed but not very much anymore. I see on TV News several UAW union is on strike for higher pay $31.50 hr and better work conditions. I don't mine unions as long as they act civilized. I don't like the union workers with an attitude.

1974 I worked maintenance at Twin City Barge in St Paul MN. It was my job to keep the equipment running. The workers all acted like a bunch of Nazi spies they kept an eye on me all the time to make sure I only did maintenance and nothing else. I often spent 7 hours every day with nothing to do the job was boring as hell. This makes a company inefficient to pay none productive people that is why pay increases for everyone are hard to get. I use to walk around the factory just to have something to do the Nazi spies were calling the union on me all the time. I decided you backward stupid morons deserve to work here the rest of your life I quit and moved to Illinois.

I took a maintenance job at Norge they make washing machines & electric dryers. I was press room maintenance. Same problem unions would not allow me to help maintenance in a different department if they need help. There was often nothing for me to do for 3 weeks at a time in the press room it was very boring job. Spot welding department has having trouble all the time the factory assembly line was often shut down for 2 or 3 hours but I was never allowed to help & it was boring to watch. One day the man in the spot welding dept needed a wrench so I handed him one & another Nazi spy called the union on me. I quit that job and moved to TN.

Moving to TN is the best thing I ever did. I did electronic tech work for 3 years then tool & die maker for several years, then tool room & all factory maintenance supervisor for 6 years, then factory design engineer for 7 years then factory plant engineer for 20 years, then I retired at age 55. I NEVER could have done what I did if I had continued to live in a union state.

An example of union/job demarcation from my past, I have written here some time ago about the incident and cannot bare to re-type it.

Linky thingy:

JimB

gary350 said:

This makes a company inefficient to pay none productive people that is why pay increases for everyone are hard to get.

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So then how do you justify paying the people at the top of a company ~1000 times the highest paid hourly employee? They afford nothing to the production of a profit or cost of the product, but yet are the biggest reason things cost so much in the first place. I can't or shouldn't be both ways, the guy on the shop floor being blamed because he want's to have a decent living and yet the guys at the top have any and all they want.

I worked in both union and nonunion places, I'll chose a union shop any day.

I had 9 years at a car company back in the 1960’s, it is my belief the unions put several nails in the British car industry coffin. in the last 6 months i worked at Rover (Solihull ) we had 44 strikes .. some lasting a few hours , others maybe a week, one was over a bad smell … during this unhappy period the quality of the vehicles gradually fell, it eventually got taken over by British Leyland , and lasted a few more rusty years. The Rover designed cars were amazing , the people who built them not so . One day I had to watch as finished new shiny cars bumped into each other at the end of the final track ( someone who's job it was to drive them off was missing ) I was prevented from driving them off by the union rep “Is not your job lad” ..I rushed round and hit the emergency stop button to halt the line .. I was not popular..
( 4 or 5 had front and rear damage, These cars were worth about 35,000 GBP each in today's money)

granddad said:

it is my belief the unions put several nails in the British car industry coffin

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Amen.

At its peak, the british car industry employed nearly 2.5-3 million workers. Now, the best estimate I can find is 300,000; and that is probably on the high side. And *all* of the profits go overseas! ('cept maybe Morgan.)

How did the 'working man' benefit in the long term from the actions of 'Red Ken' and his ilk? (Skargill; Taffte,...)

And before you categorise me as some 'soft southern privileged twat'; my father died aged 54; his final weeks wage was £24.19. His total estate was £212.53.

In the Uk, the unions f***ed their members over. (And over and over.) As long as 'collective bargaining' is intimately intwined with marxist ideaology, it never benefits the many. And the rise (and thankfully, fall) of Corbyn says that despite the 35 years since Thatcherism, it's still waiting inthe wings to pounce.

In the 70s when I started work, Long & Crawford Ltd (HV Switchgear manufacturer) employed 5 new apprentices every year. About 5 years later the union had driven up apprentices wages to nearly a fully skilled mans wage - L & C stopped employing apprentices!!!

Funnily, I can't find a single person that voted for Maggie even though she won 3 elections with a landslide majority.

Mike.

shortbus= said:

So then how do you justify paying the people at the top of a company ~1000 times the highest paid hourly employee?

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This differs from place to place... Some are paid high wages to just be a fall guy... Some are paid high wages because they actually do bring in the money..

Assume this... Without a high tech Sales manager... Sales net;- 20,000.. With a High tech Sales manager 120,000... You cannot say no!..

At the end of the day It'll be how much profit the product can make...

Ian Rogers said:

Assume this... Without a high tech Sales manager... Sales net;- 20,000.. With a High tech Sales manager 120,000... You cannot say no!..

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That's not who I'm talking about. A sales man is doing something to help make profit. A CEO is just a figure head, and lends nothing productive to the profit, they take a bigger part of the profit than anyone else in the organization. To think their compensation isn't folded into the "products" selling price is not something I can believe. Their pay has to come from some where.

Think of it as a body of directors.... They MUST bring something to the table otherwise the shareholders would step in..

Take a CEO who's best mate is a senior politician... The orders they can get just by him being their being CEO will be enormous.

Here we have a program called Dragons den... I think you have a similar program over there.. Just having a dragon in your payroll earns you big style..

shortbus= said:

A CEO is just a figure head, and lends nothing productive to the profit,

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There are CEOs and CEOs.

For the extreme end of the argument against your statement. Take Elon Musk as an example. Starts Zip2 with his brother, sells it to Compaq for after 4 years for $300million. Starts X.com, which becomes Paypal and sells to ebay for $1.5billion after 3 years. Starts SpaceX now valued at $74billion. Joins Tesla now valued at $777billion. Love'im or hate him, you cannot deny he makes things happen.

Of course, for every one like him, there are a dozen wastes of space and air; but think about your (ex-)coworkers, how many of them were wastrels? And for every star, there were probably a dozen plodders.

The very best CEOs are worth what they are paid because of their willingness to take hard decisions and bear responsibility; which is why they are paid what they are paid, to stop them being poached.

For the rest, their jobs wouldn't exist if there wasn't a need.

Everyone that works for the company is necessary, the janitor that cleans the office floors & bumps trash in necessary. The person that answers phone calls and directs calls to the correct person adds no profit but is necessary too.. Fork lift drivers add more profit but are required. Maintenance & electricians add no profit but are necessary. The person that makes sure restrooms have toilet paper are necessary. The problem is, the people higher up decides how much everyone gets paid and often pay them self much more than they are worth. You take John D Rockefeller he often spent 14 hrs a day in his office scheming up ways to make more money & put 1000s of people to work that would have other wise been homeless.

gary350 said:

Maintenance & electricians add no profit but are necessary.

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I have to disagree with that. As someone who worked many yearss in that capacity, if I wasn't doing something while a line was running the company was making money. If the line broke down and I was there to fix it they started to again make money faster than if it had to be shut down for a few shifts until an outside company/technician came in,and the time it would take to figure out the problem.

Buk said:

There are CEOs and CEOs.

For the extreme end of the argument against your statement. Take Elon Musk as an example. Starts Zip2 with his brother, sells it to Compaq for after 4 years for $300million. Starts X.com, which becomes Paypal and sells to ebay for $1.5billion after 3 years. Starts SpaceX now valued at $74billion. Joins Tesla now valued at $777billion. Love'im or hate him, you cannot deny he makes things happen.

Of course, for every one like him, there are a dozen wastes of space and air; but think about your (ex-)coworkers, how many of them were wastrels? And for every star, there were probably a dozen plodders.

The very best CEOs are worth what they are paid because of their willingness to take hard decisions and bear responsibility; which is why they are paid what they are paid, to stop them being poached.

For the rest, their jobs wouldn't exist if there wasn't a need.

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That the Musk is one in a very very few results. I was talking about a CEO being appointed that has no idea what the company does or even how they do it. Starting your own company and knowing what the job and end result is is a totally different thing.