Times Table

[spec]

Recently the Department of Education proudly announced that all pupils completing primary education should know their times tables up to times 12. I was amazed, firstly because they thought this was a ground breaking measure and secondly, are they saying that after six or seven years of primary school education, pupils don't know up to their twelve times table at age eleven- what is going on?

 

[Ian Rogers]

Well!!! Here's the thing.. My daughter is a TA in a local secondary school.. She does math and sign.. Around 30% of the pupils can't read or write coming out of primary school, let alone do their 12 times table... Its a huge problem and getting worse..

I understand that some students are slow especially if they require special needs, but!! Come on 30%!!

 

[spec]

I may be getting into deep water again, but UK teachers are always banging on a bout how hard their job is. Does anyone know how many hours a teacher is contracted to work. I have never managed to get a definitive answer. I don't know what the position is now, but when I was at school the teaches had a grand time.

 

[Ian Rogers]

My daughter has told me that more and more TA's are taking classes so teachers can "get on with other stuff"... My daughter isn't a qualified teacher!!! She is probably very able, but not qualified... The other issue is supply teachers.

My wife works at a primary school ( Dinner lady ), but does reading classes... She tells me that some students haven't SEEN their teachers as they are ill or off for some reason.... It's no surprise then when they haven't learned anything...

 

[spec]

My daughter has told me that more and more TA's are taking classes so teachers can "get on with other stuff"... My daughter isn't a qualified teacher!!! She is probably very able, but not qualified... The other issue is supply teachers.

My wife works at a primary school ( Dinner lady ), but does reading classes... She tells me that some students haven't SEEN their teachers as they are ill or off for some reason.... It's no surprise then when they haven't learned anything...

Hell!

 

[large_ghostman]

From a pupils perspective...........

Teachers get a rough time, they are paid for school holidays but no one thinks about the good ones who work weekends and most evenings without pay. I attend several after school clubs run by teachers who dont get paid to run these clubs but do so because they want to enrich the experience of the pupil.

I am in top sets for most things (except English) so my class of 30 pupils are the best pupils, and yet class after class is disrupted by maybe 5-10 pupils who think its funny to push a teachers buttons and be as disruptive as they can, teachers can and sometimes do get a member of senior staff to come into the class and take away trouble makers, the rub however is that goes against the teacher and there ability to control a class is questioned.
Because I live a fair distance from school I could is I wanted to really play up in lessons, there is NOTHING a teacher can punish me with. They cant give me after school detention because I would miss the bus home, they can only give me 15 mins lunchtime detention because by law I have to be allowed time to eat. Also if they give me 15 mins lunch detention then they have to loose 15 mins of there lunch to supervise it.

So they teach because they want to educate students, but can you imagine what its like to try and do a job you love and have nothing but disrespect and frustration?
Some of my teachers clearly put a huge amount of effort into planning lessons, they go out of there way to help if you ask them but spend 80% of the lesson dealing with idiots who want to play up.

I am no fan of some teachers but I wouldnt want there job, I dont think society or anyone else gives them the respect they deserve. Its a hard job and I think if you were to work out the actual hours they work and compare it to the hours they are paid, then the pay is pretty low.
I have seen a pupil in my class spit in a teachers face and reduce her to tears, she can write to the pupils parents but what would be the point? If a pupil is willing to spit at a teacher what is the likely response from the parent?
I am no angel but fear of my parents reaction stops me even considering such behavior, inoing to happen to the case of the spitting thing the teacher did get the parents in. She was off work for 4 weeks because the mother assaulted her! The kid involved has since been expelled for hitting another pupil with a chair.

Teacher bashing is good fun and all the rage, some are really crap teachers. But if the job gets any harder and people decide to not bother going into teaching what is going to happen to society?
My mum tells me when she and my dad were at school teachers were highly regarded within communities, apparently they could sign passports etc as they were considered of special status. So how come now we treat them badly then cant understand why so many are off sick or no longer try and actually teach, I would say I have 3 good teachers, but I sit in class sometimes and wonder why the hell they come into work and put up with agro from some of my class.

I am lucky in the sense I am happy to teach myself in many things, its just as well as few of my teachers get time to teach. So much time is wasted trying to get pupils to shut up or sit down, I think it would be a good idea to have cameras in a class room and let parents see what some of there kids get upto.
I had a teacher who I just didnt get on with or like, one day while not in the best of moods I told them to F off. The words tumbled out before my brain had even realized my mouth was moving, my mum and dad were called in...................
My dad came to my next lesson with the teacher, he made me stand in front of the class and read out a long letter of apology to the teacher! If that wasnt bad enough he turned up every day at lunchtime and made me wash there car every day for a week! I loved my dad but he had a real skill in dreaming up the most horrific punishments lol.

I doubt many people who put teachers down could stand in a class and take the abuse without reacting, I doubt many would work most evenings without pay, and I doubt many engineers would teach engineering for £30,000 a year while taking all the **** they get. I think the best idea would be to stop treating education as a right, think it should be 3 strikes then out of school (all school) never to return, then I think anyone who has been kicked out shouldnt be entitled to any social security money. Until education is given the respect it deserves it isnt going to improve, its also so badly underfunded its little more than somewhere to keep kids during the day while parents are at work.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I may be getting into deep water again, but UK teachers are always banging on a bout how hard their job is. Does anyone know how many hours a teacher is contracted to work. I have never managed to get a definitive answer. I don't know what the position is now, but when I was at school the teaches had a grand time.

At a decent primary they start about 8:00, leave about 18:00, then work three or four hours at home and most of the weekend.

The holidays are nothing like people imagine either - the summer for example is essentially unpaid.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

My daughter has told me that more and more TA's are taking classes so teachers can "get on with other stuff"... My daughter isn't a qualified teacher!!! She is probably very able, but not qualified... The other issue is supply teachers.

Many schools use TA's to run classes as it's cheaper than teachers, or/and they can't attract teachers to the positions.

A local school has recently had a brand new school built (on the site of my daughters secondary school they knocked down), they only had two teachers and one of those walked out just the other week. There's no headmaster (he was useless, and left to start a micro-brewery), so it's got a temporary part time head - as no one applied for the heads position. They have advertised for teachers, but only had three applicants, none of whom were suitable.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Well!!! Here's the thing.. My daughter is a TA in a local secondary school.. She does math and sign.. Around 30% of the pupils can't read or write coming out of primary school, let alone do their 12 times table... Its a huge problem and getting worse..

I understand that some students are slow especially if they require special needs, but!! Come on 30%!!

That can only be a seriously failing school, or it has huge numbers of 'special needs' pupils - my wife is a TA (in a good well performing school), and there's huge attention given to reading and writing - but the school can only do so much with the massive government interference (there's something like 9 hours per day of compulsory lessons in primary now specified by the government).

Any kids who leave primary unable to read and write have serious problems, and the resources aren't their to help them further - although in a poorly performing school they get FAR more money per child.

 

[Ian Rogers]

Any kids who leave primary unable to read and write have serious problems, and the resources aren't their to help them further - although in a poorly performing school they get FAR more money per child.

You hit the nail on the head.... These children are.... what can I call it.... Thick!!!! I should imagine if the school takes a large portion of these then offstead will take a leaner stance...

 

[zahwi]

and left to start a micro-brewery

Poor man, the children drove him to the bottle.

Several of my friends are teachers, they blame the parents. Those teacher friends are very intelligent and I agree with them because it matches my experience with children behavior.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Those teacher friends are very intelligent and I agree with them because it matches my experience with children behavior.

I know a LOT of teachers, and meet a lot more during the course of my work - it's rare to find one I'd call 'intelligent' and certainly not 'very intelligent'

To quote an old phrase "those who can do, those who can't teach"

Teaching is (mostly) a profession for those with poor degrees in crap subjects, and is about as good as you get with those sort of qualifications.

While the actual teaching might be rewarding, and imparting knowledge to gets who want to learn certainly is, the HUGE amounts of stupid paperwork are completely killing the profession, along with continual interference from government who don't the slightest clue about kids or teaching them.

Funnily enough, my daughter advised one of the governments chief advisers on Education (she met him at Uni), he didn't know the slightest thing about Primary, and had only vague ideas about Secondary - yet his opinions are what's been used by the Government.

 

[zahwi]

While the actual teaching might be rewarding, and imparting knowledge to gets who want to learn certainly is, the HUGE amounts of stupid paperwork are completely killing the profession, along with continual interference from government who don't the slightest clue about kids or teaching them.

In all professions only 10% is good and the rest aren't so good, including TV repair.
You obviously know a lot about teaching and schools, to your opinion, how big is the part of parents in childred education?

 

[Musicmanager]

some of you will know, I'm a retired teacher ...

Bigoted and ill-informed comments from some members I have come to expect and ignore, however, when members, moderators even, who I have always valued and respected, start making the same kind of offensive remark such as prolificates this thread then it is time for me to find another source for my electronics interest.

I'm of the mind that this was the intention of the OP at the outset .. .. .. but since he walks on water at the moment .. .. .. .

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement .. disgusted is nearer ... ... but then ... .. who cares ?

S

 

[jpanhalt]

Musicmanager

I did not read spec's original post that way. And, I am guilty of jokingly reciting an adage about teachers. Truth is, I have been a teacher my whole life, my wife is a teacher (special ed and hearing impaired), one of my daughters is a middle school teacher, and two of my SIL's are teachers and/or coaches. There are incompetent and uncaring teachers, but there are more competent, caring, and devoted teachers.

I interpreted spec's comment as a reflection on the educational system in the UK, not the teachers. What he said also applies to the US. There are problems in both systems.

John

 

[Ian Rogers]

My views are based on schools in this district.... Teachers are not the problem!! Teachers will always have my admiration.... The red tape comes in to play.... One of the ladies, in our local "dog walking" session, is an ex teacher.. She is very well informed as her son is also a teacher... He is under great pressure to do "other stuff", to a point where he walked out!!!

Maybe its a northern thing...

Please don't be offended by my remarks....

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Not necessarily teacher related, but I had one wild high school year. We had modular schedules and for that year I had ONE 45 minute class from 8:00 to 8:45 on Tuesday and that was it for the entire day. On Thursday, I had only 15 minutes for lunch. Why? I was in the college prep program and wanted to take metalshop.

 

[large_ghostman]

We have prelims at the moment, so I get really mixed days. Fridays I only have P.E for an hour in the morning then the rest of the day is study time, I stay at home as it isnt worth an hour trip there and an hour trip back just to sit and watch the rest of my class run about for an hour!

I tend to get more done at home on Fridays anyway.

 

[spec]

Musicmanager

I did not read spec's original post that way. And, I am guilty of jokingly reciting an adage about teachers. Truth is, I have been a teacher my whole life, my wife is a teacher (special ed and hearing impaired), one of my daughters is a middle school teacher, and two of my SIL's are teachers and/or coaches. There are incompetent and uncaring teachers, but there are more competent, caring, and devoted teachers.

I interpreted spec's comment as a reflection on the educational system in the UK, not the teachers. What he said also applies to the US. There are problems in both systems.

John

Thanks john,

That's exactly the position

 

[spec]

In all professions only 10% is good and the rest aren't so good, including TV repair.
You obviously know a lot about teaching and schools, to your opinion, how big is the part of parents in childred education?

I have never heard that low a figure. My understanding is that 20% are capable and do the work, this is true for design engineers just like any other profession. I am sufficiently grown up to realise that just because I belong to a certain field that not every one in that field is perfect.