Times Table

spec said:

My wife's second cousin was taking a tech course to be an electrician. He showed me some homework he was having trouble completing. Would you believe it. The subject was transistor audio amplifiers. On the paper there was a schematic of an amplifier and a list of questions about the circuit. I was amazed by what I saw- there were two major errors on the amp schematic which meant that no one could have sorted out what was going on. This was a standard course paper that had been in use for years.

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That's remarkably common

I've found numerous such examples in exams over the years - generally exams are set and marked by people you don't understand the subject.

I was a finalist a number of years (I won it twice) in the Sharp Electronics UK Engineer of the Year competition - the finals were held in nice hotels, and various events or trips were included. Anyway, in one final we all came out of the exam moaning like mad about one of the questions - this particular one was multiple choice, and none of the answers was correct. We approached the Sharp guys, who we all knew, and complained bitterly about question 8 (or whatever number it was) - to be told it was Jim who set the paper - so we all hunted down Jim

His 'excuse' was that he had compiled the questions from a number of sources, and hadn't actually checked them his self - but at least he was technical, and didn't bother checking - many exams are compiled in a similar war, but by people who don't understand the questions at all. I'd like to think that if I was compiling an exam paper I'd make damn sure there weren't any silly mistakes in it.

Incidentally, I (along with many of the other contestants) added an extra answer box with the correct answer, and ticked that one - but as we all complained long before the papers were marked (to the actual people who would be marking them) I presume that question was ignored.

spec said:

When I told my wife's second cousin about the errors I could tell he didn't believe me- uncle Chuck knows more than my instructor?

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No comments.

You make me laugh zahwi

Nigel Goodwin said:

That's remarkably common

I've found numerous such examples in exams over the years - generally exams are set and marked by people you don't understand the subject.

I was a finalist a number of years (I won it twice) in the Sharp Electronics UK Engineer of the Year competition - the finals were held in nice hotels, and various events or trips were included. Anyway, in one final we all came out of the exam moaning like mad about one of the questions - this particular one was multiple choice, and none of the answers was correct. We approached the Sharp guys, who we all knew, and complained bitterly about question 8 (or whatever number it was) - to be told it was Jim who set the paper - so we all hunted down Jim

His 'excuse' was that he had compiled the questions from a number of sources, and hadn't actually checked them his self - but at least he was technical, and didn't bother checking - many exams are compiled in a similar war, but by people who don't understand the questions at all. I'd like to think that if I was compiling an exam paper I'd make damn sure there weren't any silly mistakes in it.

Incidentally, I (along with many of the other contestants) added an extra answer box with the correct answer, and ticked that one - but as we all complained long before the papers were marked (to the actual people who would be marking them) I presume that question was ignored.

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Remarkably common as you say.

My experience is that it does not matter which field you are in, if you examine any area in detail you will uncover a load of errors. One of the worst are solicitors. When I bought a house the invoice they sent was illegible so I wrote back to say so. In a week I got an invoice that was just legible but most of the boiler plate was missing. When I checked the figures I found a number of things were missing and there was errors. So I wrote back explaining. A week later I got a new invoice that was illegible. With this I went to the solicitors office and demanded to see him- he was not available. Instead a young lady from transaction settlements popped out of the wood work and explained that she was the specialist on my account and that I needed to settle my account immediately. When I explained that I did not know how much to pay, she said it was on the invoice and that I had to settle the invoice before completion. I explained that I had bought several houses before and did know the score. She then went back to demanding payment. At that point there was a violent explosion and she scuttled away bright red in the face and I never saw her again. As I was in a hurry I just paid the sum stated on the invoice which was about £1,400 short. The solicitor charged £250 per hour and the invoice shambles was just one of many errors in the house purchase.

spec said:

At that point there was a violent explosion and she scuttled away bright red in the face and I never saw her again.

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Next time start first with the explosion, it will save you time.
Do you know what they say for 300 solicitors at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

zahwi said:

Next time start first with the explosion, it will save you time.
Do you know what they say for 300 solicitors at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

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If you start with an explosion they lock you up- I know.

In the 1950s, 60s and 70s the normal form for public agents, like librarians, doctor's receptionists, dental receptionists, etc was to be as awkward and surely as possible. Every year we had to take out car logbook, insurance, and application form in to the local post office and get a new tax disk to put on our windscreen to be legal again. In the main post office there was this nasty little one-eyed worm who would inspect your documents looking for errors- wrong colour biro, i not dotted that sort of thing. He always found something. Then you had to fill out a new form and go to the back of the long queue again. One or two such rejections and iterations was fairly normal. One Saturday a Scotts colleague was on his second queuing after a total time of about 40 minutes. He got to the counter about 10 minutes later at about 12:29pm.

The mono-eyed person examined his form for a minute and then gave it back and closed the hatch- the post office closed for the day at 12:30 lunch time. My god, was there an explosion. Every body in the huge Victorian building froze as my Scotts college turned the clark into a blubbering lump of jelly and demanded to see the manager. About 5 minutes later the assistant manager arrived in a great state of anxiety and my colleague tore into him too. Within a minute the hatch had been opened and his documents stamped and a nice new tax certificate issued. By this time a large crowd of fellow sufferers had gathered around the hatch and they all started cheering and clapping.

I never saw Mr worm again, and a year or so later when I went to tax the car there was hardly a queue and the application form was stamped in a second with a smile and no fuss.

Quite recently I went into a sub post office to buy some stamps and met a worm impersonator, but he was not in the same league as the originals. He buckled under very light fire.

jpanhalt said:

Musicmanager

I did not read spec's original post that way. And, I am guilty of jokingly reciting an adage about teachers. Truth is, I have been a teacher my whole life, my wife is a teacher (special ed and hearing impaired), one of my daughters is a middle school teacher, and two of my SIL's are teachers and/or coaches. There are incompetent and uncaring teachers, but there are more competent, caring, and devoted teachers.

I interpreted spec's comment as a reflection on the educational system in the UK, not the teachers. What he said also applies to the US. There are problems in both systems.

John

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Thanks John, I was going to point out exactly what you posted. So the same problems exist in the UK as this side of the pond.

Ron

spec said:

I never saw Mr worm again, and a year or so later when I went to tax the car there was hardly a queue and the application form was stamped in a second with a smile and no fuss.

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I've heard many people saying that the British suffer because they don't complain enough.

My HS shop class was weird. You basically got a safety lesson and then individual instruction based on your project. The same technique happened in a boy's club. At work, I had certain projects I wanted to do in the shop. The machinists did off a short course for people using the shop. Then when it came to specific projects, the machinists would set the machine up for you or you had to have your set-up approved.

A few things were stressed;
1. eye protection
2. No loose fitting shirts around the lathe.
3. Hand must ALWAYS be on the chuck key. If you left the chuck key in the lathe or drill chick, you got yelled at.

We all agreed that the table saw was the most dangerous piece of equipment followed by the 10" Clausing lathe with a 5 HP motor on it.

zahwi said:

I've heard many people saying that the British suffer because they don't complain enough.

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You are right on the button there zahwi. Brits will put up with anything. That is why standards are so low. This is especially true of products. They will be sold the worst piece of junk and never complain.

When this really came home to me was when I asked a chap about his brand new Hilman Avenger car. He said it was great. I asked if he had any problems with it. He said not really, but I did have to fit a new engine and gearbox. Still it is not an expensive model and you expect things like that.

Reloadron said:

Thanks John, I was going to point out exactly what you posted. So the same problems exist in the UK as this side of the pond.

Ron

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I would just like to make quite clear that, in spite of what I say, I have great respect for teachers/instructors/educators and think that they do an important and difficult job, sometimes under adverse conditions. I have done instructing myself and was unpaid liaison officer between engineering and the apprentice school at work. Don't forget that there are always problem members/organizations in any discipline, including medical for example. Just so in my field, design engineering. I would never take a swipe at anyone... without provocation that is. So anyone who is a teacher, or is involved in education please don't take offense.

KeepItSimpleStupid said:

My HS shop class was weird. You basically got a safety lesson and then individual instruction based on your project. The same technique happened in a boy's club. At work, I had certain projects I wanted to do in the shop. The machinists did off a short course for people using the shop. Then when it came to specific projects, the machinists would set the machine up for you or you had to have your set-up approved.

A few things were stressed;
1. eye protection
2. No loose fitting shirts around the lathe.
3. Hand must ALWAYS be on the chuck key. If you left the chuck key in the lathe or drill chick, you got yelled at.

We all agreed that the table saw was the most dangerous piece of equipment followed by the 10" Clausing lathe with a 5 HP motor on it.

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The trouble is that when safety is rammed down your throat all the time you tend to switch off and that can lead to accidents.

Our metalwork master was very safety conscious, especially a about hot items in the forge. He said that just because a piece of metal didn't appear to be hot never touch it because you could never tell how hot it might be. Instead pick up the item with tongs and quench it in the bath. If he saw you even thinking of touching a piece in the forge you were in for it. The other thing he insisted on was that all hot items were to be placed in the sand box

One afternoon we were in the forge and received his usual warning. Our job was to make a trowel or something like that. One of the lads, instead of making a trowel, made what amounted to a huge dagger. When the master spotted this through the glass window of the forge, he went crazy and rushed into the forge and grabbed the dagger off the sand- it had recently come out of coals and was just below dull red.

spec said:

The trouble is that when safety is rammed down your throat all the time you tend to switch of and that can lead to accidents.

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Adults worry that they wont be able to live with the guilt if a child gets hurt on their watch.
On the other hand boys think that they are bullet proof and they also think that taking big risk is lots of fun.

There is a theory called Risk Compensation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation) that seems to have some validity. It has been around for awhile. I think one factor not mentioned explicitly in the article -- at least I didn't see it -- is that as more and more warnings are put forth, people become dulled to the idea and ignore them. It is increased risk by obfuscation.

John

jpanhalt said:

Risk Compensation

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Risk Compensation theory can also explain the difference between young and old. When you are young and your muscles and reflexes are better it allows you to take more risks.
When you get older you could be more dulled being exposed longer to warnings but you also take less risk because the danger is greater. The dullness probably has the lesser effect.
Never the less I agree that hearing more warnings causes dullness.

The effect of age can also be related to the fact that older people often have more to lose and greater responsibilities than a younger person with better reflexes! Not that anyone we know of has ever taken his riches to an afterlife. One does grow into a feeling of responsibility.

John

jpanhalt said:

The effect of age can also be related to the fact that older people often have more to lose and greater responsibilities than a younger person with better reflexes! Not that anyone we know of has ever taken his riches to an afterlife. One does grow into a feeling of responsibility.

John

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Every now and then I get together with a group of guys I grew up with in NYC. The common thread is always reflecting back to our youth and how we were invincible, or so we thought. Youth really is wasted on the young.

On a side note, are we done with times tables?

Ron

Reloadron said:

On a side note, are we done with times tables?

Ron

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Ron, That is so yesterday! One reason I moved from Minnesota was the cold. We are now b'1010' °F -- at least I didn't have to write that in 2's complement.

John

jpanhalt said:

Ron, That is so yesterday! One reason I moved from Minnesota was the cold. We are now b'1010' °F -- at least I didn't have to write that in 2's complement.

John

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Having friends in Minnesota I can see where Cleveland would be an improvement. This year we had it really good, right till... I sure don't miss my daily commute up I271 to Euclid daily since retiring. Days like this I just sit back and enjoy coffee looking at the morning / evening news. Parochial school during the 1950s and to this day I remember the nuns with the times tables flash cards. Maybe in February it will be time to escape for a few weeks to someplace warmer with sunshine.

Ron

Reloadron said:

On a side note, are we done with times tables?

Ron

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I think just learning the times table by rote has little value and when I was a nipper I objected to learning the times table and never did learn them. I don't know them now. What worried me was that the teacher's pets who could rattle off any times table in front of the class, some even 13x, could not do maths, and certainly could not solve a simple real-world problem in maths.

I felt the same way about spelling and in my mind was always troubled by inconsistencies of the spelling system in the UK. Once again, the super spellers, were often not good writers. Grammar was another issue- we used to spend hours learning the collective nouns for various groups of objects: pride of lions, gaggle of geese, and on and on. What a waste of time. In principle, there is only need for one collective noun. Then you get all this nonsense about plurals: 1 crow, two crows, but one sheep, two sheep. Why?. One crow, two crow, one sheep, two sheep would be fine.

There is a fascinating book, The Loom of Language, by Frederick Bodmer, which goes into some depth about languages, their characteristics and peculiarities.

To answer your question 'are we done with times tables' yes. The thought the someone could not work out what 12x12 is or 6x7 is in their head without needing to learn tables is a worry.