Toner transfer release agents.

mneary · Jul 9, 2009

HarveyH42 said:
Isn't Mucilage made from mucus? Or was that just gross, grade school humor...

I looked it up, and mucilage is, among other things, the flytrap goo of carnivorous plants. Now that's gross.

Rolf · Jul 9, 2009

Hero999 said:
{snip}it's dried I don't see the problem.{snip}
So far I've been pretty happy with magazine paper. I've never had any problems and think that proprietary papers such as Pulsar and Press 'n' Peel are a total waste of money. Magazine paper is free and if it can be improved at very little cost then all the better.
{snip}I don't have a problem with people using overpriced paper or even talking about it on the forum but there are plenty of threads for that.
{snip}

I don't know if I fully agree with you on everything in your post but never mind..........
I think I am making progress on the magazine papers ability to release the toner much, much faster.
Elmer's (new) School Glue Gel ($2.29 us for 4 oz)
seems to do the job. Found it accidentally this afternoon.
After smearing it on the magazine paper wrinkles badly during drying and must be ironed before the PCB pattern can be printed.
Made a mistake and left my iron temp. at 300°F,
that was too hot but I went ahead with the test anyhow. The printed pattern looked good under a magnifying glass, except for a few places were it had bubbled due to the excess heat.
The transfer looked fine except for the places with the bubbles. After ironing for about three minutes I dipped the PCB directly in water. After a few minutes soaking, the paper just about fell off!
And the traces looked great.
Now I just have to find out the best way to get the glue on, using my finger is not my preferred way. Maybe I can dilute the glue with water and dip a whole page at the time.
Also I have to find the correct temp., to iron the paper before printing.

Question: Am I the only one here that is doing any experimenting?

mneary · Jul 9, 2009

I would be experimenting with mucilage but I found my 35 year old bottle (Woolworths with a 59 cent price tag) is dried up. I went out searching for it at Michaels but nobody's heard of it.

HarveyH42 · Jul 10, 2009

My interest in this thread, is mostly of amusement, but I do like useful things made out of normally discarded items. Would try this myself, unless I was desperate, and didn't have access to the Pulsar paper. I get at least 2 boards, on about 40 cents worth of paper, a lot less prep work and time (wish I had the free time you guys have, mine doesn't come so cheap).

But doesn't it seem odd, that you refuse to pay $1.50 for a full sheet that's ready to go and works fine, but more than willing to run thin magazine paper (jammed in mine, 2 out 3 tries), and exotic coatings of unknown heat tolerance through your $100+ laser printers?

I guess you do get bragging rights, if you find a free alternative to a commercial product.

Anyway, I do have a few constructive ideas...
Since you are going to coat the paper yourself, go with something heavier than magazine paper. It won't curl and wrinkle as much. Before you coat, you can tape it down to a smooth surface (glass maybe), apply the goo, and use something like a non-stick Teflon cutting board/sheet, maybe even some of that wax paper... over the coating, then a heavy smooth surface to keep it pressed flat. Everything is reusable, except the paper.

UTMonkey · Jul 10, 2009

3v0 said:
The general method is to use only enough pulsar paper for the image you are printing.

1. Print image on regular paper.

2. Cut pulsar paper to cover image on regular paper.

3. Place a single piece of tape along top edge of pulsar paper to hole it in place over image. (I use blue painters tape)

4. Print the image on the above assembly.

This method allows for maximum use of the paper. One sheet will make a lot of small boards.

Whats the stuff that you use afterward to ensure an ever better trace?

3v0 · Jul 10, 2009

Hero999 has asked us not to hijack his thread so I am starting a new one. We can talk about the pulsar system there.

pcbFX questions (aka Pulsar)

3v0

Rolf · Jul 10, 2009

2nd try with Elmer's Gel Glue

Rolf said:
{snip}And the traces looked great.
Now I just have to find out the best way to get the glue on, using my finger is not my preferred way. Maybe I can dilute the glue with water and dip a whole page at the time.
Also I have to find the correct temp., to iron the paper before printing. {snip}

Here is a picture of the PCB, still soaking wet, after soaking for about two minutes. Note the transfer paper came off in one piece!
There are some distortions in traces due to water droplets acting like little lenses.
The transfer paper was ironed at 200°F to removed the wrinkles that the Elmer's gel glue caused. Paper has to be dry first.

Next I will try to dilute the glue and dip a whole sheet in at one time. Stay tuned!

Hero999 · Jul 10, 2009

HarveyH42 said:
But doesn't it seem odd, that you refuse to pay $1.50 for a full sheet that's ready to go and works fine,

I'd rather pay £0 for something that works fine.

The only think I would like to improve it the soak time, if the paper could fall away as soon as it gets wet, it would be great.

but more than willing to run thin magazine paper (jammed in mine, 2 out 3 tries),

I've never had any problems with it jamming before, perhaps the paper you used was too thin?

The magazine paper I use isn't much lighter than normal printer paper.

Anyway, I do have a few constructive ideas...
Since you are going to coat the paper yourself, go with something heavier than magazine paper. It won't curl and wrinkle as much. Before you coat, you can tape it down to a smooth surface (glass maybe), apply the goo, and use something like a non-stick Teflon cutting board/sheet, maybe even some of that wax paper... over the coating, then a heavy smooth surface to keep it pressed flat. Everything is reusable, except the paper.

Going thicker might not help, any paper will curl and bubble if you get it too soggy.

I think using something less wet is probably a better solution.

3v0 · Jul 10, 2009

Hero999 said:
I don't have a problem with people using overpriced paper or even talking about it on the forum but there are plenty of threads for that.

Based on this I created a thread for people interested in talking about the Pulsar system. In the new Pulsar thread you posted:

Hero999 said:
You need to use magazine paper, there's no need to waste your money!

Apparently you do have a problem with people who would rather spend 1.5 cents per square inch rather then burn their time reinventing the wheel.

3v0

HarveyH42 · Jul 10, 2009

3v0 said:
Based on this I created a thread for people interested in talking about the Pulsar system. In the new Pulsar thread you posted:

Apparently you do have a problem with people who would rather spend 1.5 cents per square inch rather then burn their time reinventing the wheel.

3v0

It's like changing tires on your car. You can get a shop to mount them on their machine for $10-$20 each, or you can spend 15-20 just to remove the tire from the wheel, for free. Did this many times in my youth, haven't even seen it done in the past twenty years. It's not that it can't be done by most people, it's messy and very physical. I wouldn't consider doing again, unless there was no other option. Same with magazine paper.

Hero999 · Jul 10, 2009

3v0 said:
Based on this I created a thread for people interested in talking about the Pulsar system. In the new Pulsar thread you posted:

I wasn't being completely serious hence the smilie.

Apparently you do have a problem with people who would rather spend 1.5 cents per square inch rather then burn their time reinventing the wheel.

Doesn't bother me if people want to spend more money then they have to.

Time?
If you really want to save time then have the boards made for you.

EDIT:
It doesn't take me that long with magazine paper, there's not that much experimenting, I get perfect results every time. Magazine paper worked for me the first time I tried it. You must have been using the wrong paper or not doing it correctly.

Nevertheless, if it can be made easier and faster by applying a release agent then all the better.

Anyway back on topic,
I'm going to try hairspray for the next board I print, hopefully it'll be quick drying and won't cause wrinkling. Hairspray should be able to take some heat as it's designed for use with hair driers and curling tongs. It should also be water soluble enough to release the toner effectively.

3v0 · Jul 10, 2009

As I pointed out in the other thread crap is crap even if you hang a smile on it. You wanted Pulsar out of your thread and I did just that. Then you show up and crap in the Pulsar thread.

With the pulsar system you can make a PCB (not counting drilling) in about the time it takes you to get magazine paper to release. The pulsar material for a 2x4 inch PCB will cost less then 25 cents. Why bother.

3v0

Hero999 · Jul 10, 2009

I was joking, sorry if it upset you.

I shall not mention magazine paper in your thread again, even in jest.

mneary · Jul 10, 2009

I wanted to mention my solution to the jamming problem with magazine pages and thin grocery advertising supplements.

I make an image on ordinary paper and then tape a piece of coated paper the right size over it and run it through the printer again. The printer doesn't care; it thinks I'm using Pu**ar.

Rolf · Jul 10, 2009

Hero999 said:
{snip}I'm going to try hairspray for the next board I print, hopefully it'll be quick drying and won't cause wrinkling. Hairspray should be able to take some heat as it's designed for use with hair driers and curling tongs. It should also be water soluble enough to release the toner effectively.

The hear spray I tried did a good job of going on without causing excessive wrinkles, I am fairly sure I can print on it without ironing it first, it is also fairly fast drying.
Hopefully I can do a toner transfer test tomorrow.

Rolf · Jul 10, 2009

Hero999 said:
{snip}I'm going to try hairspray for the next board I print, hopefully it'll be quick drying and won't cause wrinkling. Hairspray should be able to take some heat as it's designed for use with hair driers and curling tongs. It should also be water soluble enough to release the toner effectively.

The hair spray I tried did a good job of going on without causing excessive wrinkles, I am fairly sure I can print on it without ironing it first, it is also fairly fast drying.
Hopefully I can do a toner transfer test tomorrow.

Edit: The printer smoothed out the paper and made fine impression.

Rolf · Jul 10, 2009

HarveyH42 said:
It's like changing tires on your car. You can get a shop to mount them on their machine for $10-$20 each, or you can spend 15-20 just to remove the tire from the wheel, for free. Did this many times in my youth, haven't even seen it done in the past twenty years. It's not that it can't be done by most people, it's messy and very physical. I wouldn't consider doing again, unless there was no other option. Same with magazine paper.

Why do you find it so difficult to stay with the subject of this thread?
There are many countries were it is difficult obtaining commercial transfer papers. And mail ordering from USA is a major expense and not within their budget. Some on this forum (from the USA) might be in a similar situation, we have no way of knowing do we?
It is with these people in mind that I have taken on this project and for no other reason.
Like I have stated many times before, I have enough P-n-P to last me a lifetime.

3v0 · Jul 10, 2009

Rolf said:
Why do you find it so difficult to stay with the subject of this thread?

If you want to point a finger I suggest you try point at Hero999.

3v0

HarveyH42 · Jul 10, 2009

Sorry, will let it go. It was just getting annoying to keep reading the praises of using magazine paper, over a product I'm quite satisfied with, where my own experiences were quite different and disappointing. I'm sure if I kept with it, I'd get better results, but not quickly or consistently.

I do think this is a great thread, and has a lot of potential. Not sure if I'll try it anytime soon, but will be interested in how it turns out. With the economy, a President who loves to spend, a house and senate hungry for new taxes... We all might need to look into zero cost alternatives for a lot of things.

Hero999 · Jul 11, 2009

That's not fair.

3v0 said:
If you want to point a finger I suggest you try point at Hero999.

3v0

I know it probably wasn't sensible for me to joke about something that people are so sensitive about but I can't take responsibility for the posts of others.

Quotes from the other thread.
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/pcbfx-questons-aka-pulsar.95137/#post763892

HarveyH42 said:
Wouldn't be so bad, be you give very little advice, or share any of secrets of your success with magazine paper (photos?).

I have posted pictures of boards I have made using magazine paper before.

There aren't really many secrets, just print on the magazine, iron it to the board and soak it. I've found the more inked areas to work better and the water you soak it in shouldn't be too hot, cold might even be better but I haven't experimented with water temperature.

Took a year to squeeze out even just a hint to what kind of magazine paper you get such fantastic results with, which my printer ate for lunch.

It's difficult to say what kind of paper because there are so many different types.

I'll give you the titles of the magazines I've used but it probably won't be much help. So far I've only used two: PS Plus and The Engineer. One magazine lasts a very long time so I don't get through many.

Toner transfer release agents.

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