Turkeys on Turkey

[MrAl]

Hi,

No, this is not about the mating habits of turkeys <chuckle+smilie>.

What i noticed this year is that small turkeys seem to have a lot of bone, and to be a bit more descriptive they seem to have LESS meat to bone ratio. This also directly translates to less meat to cost ratio which means we pay more for the actual meat on the turkey if it is a small bird.

But what i found on the web is quite varied. Some say the meat to bone ratio is higher for smaller turkeys, but i find this hard to believe based on what i have seen in the past. The smaller bird i got recently (around 10 pounds) had significant bone and it was tough as i was unable to cut through it with a sharp knife when i could cut through a 6 pound chicken with a knife. So the bone is thicker on the turkey for one thing. I should have weighed the carcass but didnt think about it until after it was thrown out and picked up by the garbage collector.

What i found then if i ignore some of the posts i found on the web is the following sumarization:
8 to 12 pounds has lower meat to bone ratio.
12 to 35 pounds has higher meat to bone ratio.
Over 35 pounds the bones have to be stronger so the meat to bone ratio starts to go down again.

Im not really interested in anything over about 25 pounds though.

So what is your take on this?

 

[tunedwolf]

A 35lb Turkey? I'm guessing they get to that weight by eating the farm workers
I like a little Turkey now and then, I was kind of put off it when I was younger. I prefer a Goose now, much tastier

 

[MrAl]

Hi,

Yeah i never saw one that big either, maybe they mate with ostriches <chuckle>.

Someone actually advised another person to buy two small 10 pound turkeys rather than one 20 pound turkey because "they get more meat that way". But if most of what i read is true it's just the opposite.

 

[killivolt]

Let's talk Turkey.

I didn't see the "Meat to bone ratio" this year? I'm not sure, how it pans out? I had a Farm Raised Turkey 18lbs it was in the range for cooking, I would have preferred a 14lb, not much difference.

But, on the side of very large, the people I know raise them to have competitions at the fair. Afterward they sell them after post processing. They keep some for breeding purposes, hand fed. The lady I purchased mine from said, she had a 35 pounder, biggest one they had. Much to big for my family.

She pawned a 32lb turkey off on me the 1st year I started buying them from her. I'm not falling for that one now, takes for ever to cook. I still have a lot of meat left from the 18lb turkey?

 

[ericgibbs]

hi Al,
There was some research done a few years ago regarding turkeys.
They found if they subjected the young turkeys to a vibration thru their feet, the bones in their bodies and legs were increased in size and density.

This was done IIRC to overcome a problem younger turkeys experience when being 'force fed' in order to increase their body weight at an earlier stage, their legs are unable to support the 'excess' body weight.

Eric

 

[jpanhalt]

I believe the term allometric scaling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allometry) applies to some of that observation.

Unfortunately, modern Thanksgiving turkeys are raised under such conditions of crowding and nutritional supplements that the normal course of matters is probably altered. For example, with crowding, there is less exercise and bone growth may be less. Antibiotics probably contribute to gain in body mass. Here's a snippet from a more lengthy section in which the square-cube law is discussed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law

If an animal were isometrically scaled up by a considerable amount, its relative muscular strength would be severely reduced, since the cross section of its muscles would increase by the square of the scaling factor while its mass would increase by the cube of the scaling factor. As a result of this, cardiovascular and respiratory functions would be severely burdened.

In the case of flying animals, the wing loading would be increased if they were isometrically scaled up, and they would therefore have to fly faster to gain the same amount of lift. Air resistance per unit mass is also higher for smaller animals, which is why a small animal like an ant cannot be crushed by falling from any height.

In personal context, one of my most beloved professors was a real forensic anthropologist (not like Bones' Emily Deschanel). She was an incredible resource for information on relationships of bone size, body mass and stature in humans, and a real taskmaster to boot.

John

 

[MrAl]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies and the links.

This is getting more complex but also more interesting. It looks like the bigger the animal the bigger the bones, but since the volume goes up so fast i would think the meat bulk goes high fast too. It depends on how fast the bone mass increases vs how fast the meat mass increases, and i havent done any calculations yet.

I do know that the leg takes the most stress and i have seen a big leg bone with little meat in the small 10 pound turkey. But i am not sure about the rest of the bones as there may be a tendency for the upper bone structures to stay smaller.

So i still do not have an answer to which is more correct, does the small turkey have more meat per total body weight or does the larger turkey.

Unfortunately, i have also found that there may be different grades. Different grades would mean turkeys raised with better diet and better in overall health vs those that are not well kept. So i would want to compare turkeys from the same environment class.

 

[jpanhalt]

There are pictures of turkey factories where birds start off having room to move, then end up so crowded they can't. That must change normal development and could explain the high meat to bone ratio you found in popular sizes. The super-sized turkeys may not be raised in such conditions, as the consumer market for them is probably smaller.

John

 

[MrAl]

Hi John,

Yes i expect the living conditions and diet to vary the product just like any other animal. This makes it harder to compare too. But it is pretty interesting to look at this stuff for me because i rarely look at anything that doesnt have at least something to do with electronics ie "This is not my field" <smilie>.
But then again bone growth due to stimulation (such as what Eric nicely pointed out) is due to small electrical currents, so it's ok if i look at that too <chuckle>.

I think we might be able to work out the details though by looking at the required estimated bone strength in the legs due to increase in volume, and using that as a reference. The required bone strength would translate into bone girth and thus the weight of the bone, at least theoretically, which i am willing to accept due to the fact that i am not willing to go out and buy two or more turkeys just to dissect and weigh all the muscle, organs, and bone.
It's a shame i didnt think of this when i had the bones here though i could have easily weighed them.
Then to complicate matters even more, there is also the percent fat to consider. Much of the fat cooks away so that's another source of lost cost efficiency.

 

[ericgibbs]

But then again bone growth due to stimulation (such as what Eric nicely pointed out) is due to small electrical currents, so it's ok if i look at that too

Morning Al,
Its not a electrical current stimulation, but a vertical physical vibration from a floor mounted base plate.
They have found that bones have inbuilt stress sensors, so that when the bone is subject to compressional stress the bone cells react by producing more bone cells.
The plates are placed on the the floor of the animal bay, near the feed or water dispenser.

They are now using this vibration method for people who have osteoporosis, mainly females, its found to promote strengthened bones.

Eric

 

[jpanhalt]

Electrical stimulation also facilitates bone growth and healing: **broken link removed**

It is a currently used in treatment.

John

 

[MrAl]

Morning Al,
Its not a electrical current stimulation, but a vertical physical vibration from a floor mounted base plate.
They have found that bones have inbuilt stress sensors, so that when the bone is subject to compressional stress the bone cells react by producing more bone cells.
The plates are placed on the the floor of the animal bay, near the feed or water dispenser.

They are now using this vibration method for people who have osteoporosis, mainly females, its found to promote strengthened bones.

Eric

Hi there Eric,


First off, thanks for your reply and your other post too which was also informative.

It's my fault that i didnt explain this process further here so i apologize for that. The electrical current i was talking about in this case (not in John's case though) is due to the piezoelectric effect where the bones create small electrical currents when subject to stress. This is similar to what we see in crystals we use for electronic work. The small currents act as stimulants to create new bone.
It is also interesting that without this we loose bone mass over time. Since gravity acts partly here too i would expect astronauts to loose bone mass as well as muscle mass without proper conditioning during the mission.

In John's case though i think he is talking about direct electrical stimulation, which might be a little different, but because of the basic nature of electrical stimulation that's probably why direct stimulation works too as it simulates what the bone does naturally.