What would be special power generating techniques that are of special interest to communications and military applications?

gophert · Sep 3, 2020

Nigel Goodwin said:
how can a water wheel provide enough power to pump out more water than it's using? (I can only assume that they pumped out from a lower level?, and the water they used drained out through a sough).

quite often, water was pumped but water was not the power source - people, oxen, horses or mules were...

Nigel Goodwin · Sep 3, 2020

gophert said:
quite often, water was pumped but water was not the power source - people, oxen, horses or mules were...

View attachment 126815

But in the cases I mentioned, it was water powered.

English – Coflein

coflein.gov.uk

There's also a 'strange' water powered pump, about 20-30 miles away - that I've visited a number of times while walking:

**broken link removed**

At our local town of Chesterfield (of the famous crooked spire) they have a human powered crane in the museum, that was used to build the church, it was brought down in fairly modern times:

https://www.euansguide.com/remote.axd/nucleusimagery.blob.core.windows.net%2flive%2f3ceecf67-44c6-4803-a7bd-728bcda8de2e?width=840&mode=crop

sram · Sep 3, 2020

gophert said:
And what level of power are you looking for? To recharge batteries in an electric tank, or to charge batteries in a communication device (cell phone) when someone is out in the battlefield?

you can look at anything from a hand-cranked generator (and various other human mechanically sounds generators), a paddle wheel Along a stream, wind devices, tidal generators, various forms of Solar, various electrochemical batteries (oxidizing Metal), thermoelectric (requires a warming or cooling surface), nuclear (radioisotope generator)....

At all levels actually. Let's ask the questions this way: What electricity generating technique would I be able to use for this specific military application - insert application- whereas others wouldn't really benefit me or be unpractical? For communications satellites for example, a radioisotope thermoelectric generator is appropriate because it has no moving parts and requires no maintenance and is better than solar cells when it comes to space. Satellites serve communications and serve the military.

You mentioned batteries in the field and this is definitely a field that can see improvements. Batteries add weight and are a pain to recharge. Batteries with higher capacities, less weight and size, less charging time will be revolutionary.........I have read about graphene batteries and super-capacitors, and it seems they have future.

You are right about hand-cranked generators, paddle wheels, and wind power, but I'm actually talking about innovative new ways. Something that is special in a way and will have a bigger positive effect in the future.

Thanks for your help, and sorry if I didn't put it in good words.

Nigel Goodwin · Sep 3, 2020

sram said:
Batteries with higher capacities, less weight and size, less charging time will be revolutionary.........I have read about graphene batteries and super-capacitors, and it seems they have future.

Batteries of much improved specification are seriously required, in order to make all cars electric in the 'fairly' near future - perhaps graphene?, but unlikely to be super capacitors - they are generally pretty useless, and it's only their silly name that keeps them getting mentioned so much.

sram · Sep 3, 2020

What are the emerging new technologies when it comes to electricity generation/production/transmission? Emerging: that is the word I was looking for.

If you ask me what is the problem that you are trying to solve:

- I want better efficiency
- I want less pollution (Environment friendly methods)
- More renewable energy, less nonrenewable sources.
- I want convenience (No wires)
- I want longevity (I remember my kid one time asked me: Dad, why don't they make mobile phones that require no recharging?). He was sick of having to recharge his phone every now and then ^_^ . It was an innocent question though. I told him, you do good at school and try to do something like you suggested when you grow up

gophert · Sep 3, 2020

sram said:
At all levels actually. Let's ask the questions this way: What electricity generating technique would I be able to use for this specific military application - insert application- whereas others wouldn't really benefit me or be unpractical? For communications satellites for example, a radioisotope thermoelectric generator is appropriate because it has no moving parts and requires no maintenance and is better than solar cells when it comes to space. Satellites serve communications and serve the military.

You mentioned batteries in the field and this is definitely a field that can see improvements. Batteries add weight and are a pain to recharge. Batteries with higher capacities, less weight and size, less charging time will be revolutionary.........I have read about graphene batteries and super-capacitors, and it seems they have future.

You are right about hand-cranked generators, paddle wheels, and wind power, but I'm actually talking about innovative new ways. Something that is special in a way and will have a bigger positive effect in the future.

Thanks for your help, and sorry if I didn't put it in good words.

Well, the options are endless and I am not for going to take the time to make a summary of all of them until you come to some focus on power, weight, and understand that instantaneous power from a source will be much more difficult (and unlikely) than storing it in some type of device (battery) and using more instantaneous power than the generator can provide.

also, you seem to be under some fantasy that a mysterious, revolutionary power source exists. Sorry, that's not going to happen. All future power sources will be incremental improvements on existing technologies. Graphene batteries will be an expensive and slight improvement on lithium batteries (but batteries are not technically a power source, just a storage medium).

gophert · Sep 3, 2020

Nigel Goodwin said:
super capacitors - they are generally pretty useless, and it's only their silly name that keeps them getting mentioned so much.

but what about ultra capacitors...?
They are used as back-up or emergency power in existing applications but, short bursts, not moving a tank across a battlefield.

Ultracapacitor Overview - Maxwell Technologies

Maxwell Technologies leading global supplier of ultracapacitors. Backup Power + Regenerative Power + Burst Power + Quick Charge + Cold Starting

www.maxwell.com

sram · Sep 3, 2020

gophert said:
Well, the options are endless and I am not for going to take the time to make a summary of all of them until you come to some focus on power, weight, and understand that instantaneous power from a source will be much more difficult (and unlikely) than storing it in some type of device (battery) and using more instantaneous power than the generator can provide.

Hmmmm. Give me some time to comprehend what you just said. Please bear with me. Are you trying to say that immediately using the power generated to run a load is too difficult, that's why you have to have a mechanism to store power for later use???

You said endless. I caught that word. I'm not ganna leave you before you tell me about at least one thousand of them. hehehe ^_^

Jokes aside......Well we already talked about many of them:

-Thermoelectric generators
- Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
- Supercapacitors
- Graphene batteries
-Ultracapacitors (You just mentioned it and I was also reading about it the other day).
- Fuel cells
- Atomic battery
- Thermionic converts

Things like that. I'm just asking if there is more that are very remarkable that I missed.

gophert · Sep 3, 2020

sram said:
Hmmmm. Give me some time to comprehend what you just said. Please bear with me. Are you trying to say that immediately using the power generated to run a load is too difficult, that's why you have to have a mechanism to store power for later use???

You said endless. I caught that word. I'm not ganna leave you before you tell me about at least one thousand of them. hehehe ^_^

Jokes aside......Well we already talked about many of them:

-Thermoelectric generators
- Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
- Supercapacitors
- Graphene batteries
-Ultracapacitors (You just mentioned it and I was also reading about it the other day).
- Fuel cells
- Atomic battery
- Thermionic converts

Things like that. I'm just asking if there is more that are very remarkable that I missed.

Wood, rubber, vegetable oils - those are all nice versions of stored solar energy without a battery.

sram · Sep 3, 2020

gophert said:
also, you seem to be under some fantasy that a mysterious, revolutionary power source exists. Sorry, that's not going to happen. All future power sources will be incremental improvements on existing technologies. Graphene batteries will be an expensive and slight improvement on lithium batteries (but batteries are not technically a power source, just a storage medium).

No, not at all. Energy can't be created nor destroyed, but it can change from one form into another, or however that rule is said. I understand that very well. I'm not looking for a magical solution, but the methods I wrote above in my previous post are really cool and will "seem" revolutionary if somebody imagined them 80 years ago for example.

sram · Sep 3, 2020

gophert said:
Wood, rubber, vegetable oils - those are all nice versions of stored solar energy without a battery.

???

I don't want stored solar energy. I want Electricity.

sram · Sep 4, 2020

Do you guys think this will work out?

Thermoelectric Generators in a Geothermal Field - AltaRock

This is an R&D project which will build and test a new field-scale thermoelectric generator (TEG) at our Bottle Rock Power geothermal facility near Cobb, California. TEGs produce electrical energy when a strong enough temperature difference exists across the generator (a phenomenon known as the...

altarockenergy.com

rjenkinsgb · Sep 5, 2020

Have a look at "solid electrolyte" batteries.

Present technology lithium cells have a limited life for various reasons, one of the main ones being that the plates physically expand and shrink slightly with each charge/discharge cycle, which causes fatigue cracking and gradual breaking up of the plates.

Solid electrolyte cells/batteries [or at least some claimed types] have no mechanical changes when charged and discharged, with near unlimited lifetimes predicted.

Some info referenced here, you should easily find more.

Solid State Battery - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

Solid electrolyte batteries - the next big thing?! - electrive.com

Battery cells with a solid electrolyte promise high energy densities. Batteries in electric cars could thus become smaller and lighter – and the range could increase. But

www.electrive.com

Pommie · Sep 5, 2020

Is it only me that thinks the OP is looking for some ideal that doesn't exist. Energy (mainly) comes from the sun and can be used or stored. Many plants and organisms stored solar energy and we now use that energy in the form of coal and oil. To the OP, if you tell us the point of this question, we may be able to help. However, if it involves a sky fairy then count me out.

Mike.

rjenkinsgb · Sep 5, 2020

He has mentioned geothermal a few times, though seems to think that is new or revolutionary, when it is really an old and established concept:

History | Geothermal Electricity

[As a prime source, I'd say that would be somewhere between gravitational - from the the energy stored during the formation of the planet - and nuclear, from decay of natural isotopes ??]

I was thinking it was likely for a science fair project or some school essay / thesis?

gophert · Sep 5, 2020

I was thinking he is trying to write a grant for military funding. He keeps mentioning military.

sram · Sep 5, 2020

rjenkinsgb said:
Have a look at "solid electrolyte" batteries.

Present technology lithium cells have a limited life for various reasons, one of the main ones being that the plates physically expand and shrink slightly with each charge/discharge cycle, which causes fatigue cracking and gradual breaking up of the plates.

Solid electrolyte cells/batteries [or at least some claimed types] have no mechanical changes when charged and discharged, with near unlimited lifetimes predicted.

Some info referenced here, you should easily find more.

Solid State Battery - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

Solid electrolyte batteries - the next big thing?! - electrive.com

Battery cells with a solid electrolyte promise high energy densities. Batteries in electric cars could thus become smaller and lighter – and the range could increase. But

www.electrive.com

I'll look into that. It looks interesting.

sram · Sep 5, 2020

rjenkinsgb said:
He has mentioned geothermal a few times, though seems to think that is new or revolutionary, when it is really an old and established concept:

History | Geothermal Electricity

[As a prime source, I'd say that would be somewhere between gravitational - from the the energy stored during the formation of the planet - and nuclear, from decay of natural isotopes ??]

I was thinking it was likely for a science fair project or some school essay / thesis?

I mentioned geothermal because it relates to TEGs. I didn't know about TEGs before and when I learned about them I was like: Imagine what we can do with all this geothermal heat. Plus it is a renewable clean energy source. That's why It interested me.

And yes it is a mini-research for a training course I'm currently taking. And I work for the military.

Pommie · Sep 5, 2020

Geothermal is definitely not renewable.

Mike.

rjenkinsgb · Sep 6, 2020

Pommie said:
Geothermal is definitely not renewable.

Agreed!

In fact if used on a large scale, it's not environmentally friendly and could affect global warming, as it relies on moving heat from (nearer) the earths core into the surface environment.

What would be special power generating techniques that are of special interest to communications and military applications?

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