That's a good question. I don't really know the answer.
I guess the closest I can say is that, user 3v0 asked about an object getting hotter as it's lifted up against gravity and I don't know the answer.
If you have three bricks, one on each level of shelving, the uppermost one has the most potential energy. If the three bricks, themselves, are examined, is that energy difference apparent in any measurable way? Does the energy only manifest itself by the way it acts when it moves (in other words, is it the environment that interacts with the brick as it falls or is lowered that makes the brick seem to have had more potential energy?
Unfortunately, perhaps, there's no shortage of nit picking that can be done with something like this. Can the heat in the brick convert some water to steam and if the steam does some work, is that the same as connecting the brick to the pulley? But, even there, does the upper shelf brick have the capacity to make the water hotter? Directly from its inherent heat or only if you sum it's heat and kinetic motion as it's lowered?
I'm not trying to nit pick, I'm trying to get you to be VERY precise and unambiguous about what you mean.
So BEFORE we continue this conversation we should first define energy, potentional energy, heat energy, kinetic energy etc. This might sound like a waste of time, but I assure you it will save pointless arguing about definitions of words later.
Assuming that your theory is correct, which I personally do not believe, in the ISS the air pressure would be the same all around the brick or balloon. therefore their motion would be the same.The upshot of all that is that I don't know how gravity fits into the energy or heat picture.
We had a discussion about the role of gravity in buoyancy but, did not get into the heat issue of it. As a quick review, the question was:
If you have a helium filled balloon in the weightless environment of the ISS, what direction will it float to? What about if it's a brick?
In a gravitational field and in air, the balloon will float upward. The reason given is that there is more air pressure pushing the balloon up than is pushing it down. But, what if the "pressure" is actually, heat. What if the reason the balloon rises is because there is more or more vigorous molecular movement pushing on the bottom of the balloon (Newtonian action and reaction)?
As the medium becomes more dense, the balloon becomes even more buoyant. There are either heavier molecules in the medium or more of them.
One would have to ask why this would be any different in the ISS? Inside the space station f=ma still holds but a is zero because the space station is falling. No gravity, so the f=m*(zero),
The effective force of gravity on the objects within the ISS relative to each other is zero.
We know in atmosphere the helium balloon rises. The balloon rises because gravity is pulling with a greater force on the air around it. In effect gravity pulls air from above the balloon to below the balloon and forces the the balloon up.
3v0;775039 One would have to ask why this would be any different in the ISS? Inside the space station f=ma still holds but a is zero because the space station is falling. No gravity said:Okay, you've shown that, in a mathematical equations, if you multiply something by zero the result is zero. But, it doesn't explain the concept of how it works.
crashsite said:Okay, you've shown that, in a mathematical equations, if you multiply something by zero the result is zero. But, it doesn't explain the concept of how it works.
In relation to defining the energies....
Energy - The capacity of a system to do work.
By this, if it has thermal energy, it is capable to do work in relation to exertion of heat. Likewise kinetic energy, it is capable to do work due to its motion.
etc....
Kinetic energy- the energy an object has due to its motion. Dependant on mass and velocity.
Potential energy- the energy stored within a system that can be released at a later point.
Work - the exertion of energy.
crashsite said:Second, if any object above absolute zero has thermal energy (moving molecules), is work being done all the time?
You posted 10 paragraphs and said next to nothing. Your verboseness on the subject tends to hid any nuggets of truth you arrive at rather then help support it. Most people get tired of the nonsense after a paragraph or two.
The entire bit about heat is pressure is questionable. If they were identical then all the pressure in our car tires would leak away as heat.
Two objects at absolute zero on a collision course will still display a lot of energy when the collide.
An object in orbit above the earth at absolute zero still possesses kinetic and potential energy.
crashsite said:There are no objects in space at absolute zero. Okay, I suppose it's possible that there is a particle, somewhere in the universe, that has zero movement relative to the universe as a whole but, can' we ignore that little guy (who would only exist for the briefest of instants anyway)?.
Take the case of an air-filled balloon. You can tap the bottom of the balloon and it will rise up. But, it's heavier than the air around it (for two reasons). First, because it's the sum of the weights of the air and the latex of the balloon. Second, because the latex has an elasticity that needed to be overcome to blow the balloon up (in other words, the air in the balloon has more air pressure than that of the surrounding air).
But, the balloon doesn't just fall to the floor at a rate of 32 feet per second per second. It slowly sinks. Why? The balloon does have some buoyancy. It's difficult to imagine (at least for me it is), that there could be enough change of air pressure across the height of the balloon to significantly affect its buoyancy...but, there is. the air pushes up on the bottom of the balloon harder than it pushes down on the top.
But, what does it mean when you say that air is "pushing" on the balloon? It means that there is a force and a force implies energy and where's the energy in the air? Answer: it's in the heat that's moving the air molecules around.
I'm going to just ask a few clarifying questions.
Is it possible that "energy" can be defined as "mass in motion"? Some might invoke it as the conservation of matter and energy.
I thought the classic definition of, "work" requires that something actually move. So, I'd ask two questions. First, is work being done when light shines on a wall (and pushes against it but, doesn't move it)? Second, if any object above absolute zero has thermal energy (moving molecules), is work being done all the time?
I hope we all can keep this moving forward and avoid getting into esoteric phenomena. I also hope that, in the back of our minds, we can keep the goal in sight of how this may all relate to how sound energy propagtes.
I'm glad you said, "system" rather than "object". But, this doesn't define potential energy. It just comments on it. what is it about that system that stores that energy?
Actually, some of the pressure does leak away as heat (conversely, on the next hot day, or after a drive, it can also be put back...as heat).
Why doesn't all the pressure leak away as heat? Well, because, after pumping up the tire and some of the energy of compressing the air leaks away, the tire reaches an equilibrium where it's absorbing and radiating/conducting the same amount of heat and so the pressure also stabinlizes.
My use of absolute zero is theoretical.
Even at absolute zero an object consists of matter which can have potential or kinetic energy. Yes the molecules have stopped vibrating but they are still there.
You need to see the simple difference between linear motion of matter and heat.
Let me zero in on this.
Sound does not propagate in an absolute zero environment (if it's even possible) and, I'm no expert on the topic. So, except to say that it's outside any conceivable scenario where sound is involved, I can't really say much (and what I can say is a guess).
You mention the molecules 'vibrating". I question whether they are vibrating (at least as a fundamental property of their thermal content).
was that directed at me or crashsite?
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