Carbon negative

[Western]

The first half of this thread was fascinating to me ... I keep coming back looking/waiting for more information ... Little Ghostman ???

I've read a lot of other threads and now understand microbial fuel cells (well at least I know what they are now) ... but am interested in some real world stuff ... something that I might be able to apply on my property.

I understand you have talked about two different things ... one being some sort of "earth battery" ... and then a more conventional methane generation system to run traditional generators etc.

Carbon neutral is so not your thing...trust me on this. Go bio digester and alter a generator to use the gas to run a generator, this is about modern building techniques and rules a ****, if you can skip those and dont care about your carbon footprint, then seriously there are easier ways to make electric!

I'm interested to learn of this Carbon Neutral process, sounds fascinating ... but the bio digestor and generator idea is something I could get my teeth into.

If you have an acre of land set to grass, and two - three sheep on it, a house of 3-4 people and access to organic material. Then it makes more sense to use a modern (read new) Bio methane system, i am not on about these hopeless bag things being sold, but a 4-6 chamber system.

Normal Bio methane efficiency is only around ~30% tops. New systems are up around 90%, they also crucially run at lower temperatures, and use waste heat from the generator unit to help sustain the biological activity. these systems can run modified Gas generators in the 15KW range, the main problem is tweaking them so you can feed them enough to produce the volume of gas needed. this is why it matters that you make the entire system efficient. If your house is insulated and near modern specs, then you can probably run your entire house off of them.

We are on a few acres ... grass ... sheep ... people ... and have plenty of shed space to play with. Even IBC containers are plentiful around here.

And who would be happy with 30% efficiency if they knew 90% was attainable. Can you point me to some of this latest information please?

Thanks.

 

[large_ghostman]

Well i was going on to talk about the electronic side as this is a electronics site, I am doing a webpage and blog on the other stuff. What we are aiming at is Carbon Negative not neutral, I can link to our normal blog once its back up, but it wont tell you everything.

It should give you enough for making a home system but alot of what we are currently working on we wouldnt make public. When i get chance i will add some more info here as well, Microbial cells were initially designed to produce power, we have another use for them. The up;side being they produce enough power to go a long way in supporting the energy needed to run what we want to run inside the cells. Be careful with microbial cells, there are many types and not all are that great.

I will try and find some links to the last conference, they should have most of it now out in PDF format. (except my slides as i havnt had chance to PDF them ). But I will fix mine by weds. IBC's work but you have to modify them, also you will need a sediment chamber of Microbial cell if you dont want a batch system.

 

[rjenkinsgb]

Interesting thread, but slightly concerning in one way:

LG - If you are burying metal electrodes (and rather reactive metals by the sound of it), power is presumably produced as the metal oxidises or breaks down in other ways.

What are the long-term consequences of introducing those metal compounds to the soil and ground water? Some things are harmless, other rather nasty.

Also, to be objectively overall "energy neutral", should you allow for the energy use / carbon cost of manufacturing the materials in use, not just your use of them?

 

[Western]

Well i was going on to talk about the electronic side as this is a electronics site,

I gotta admit I was surprised to see the deviation from electronics in your threads on Renewable Energy ... but since you put it out there, you can't be surprised at getting some questions.

I am doing a webpage and blog on the other stuff. What we are aiming at is Carbon Negative not neutral, I can link to our normal blog once its back up, but it wont tell you everything.

What's the good of that then ... I want to know it all ... NOW !!! ... and I'm not even of the millennial generation.

Microbial cells were initially designed to produce power, we have another use for them.

I watched the videos you linked to ... I can see what you're talking about.

IBC's work but you have to modify them, also you will need a sediment chamber of Microbial cell if you dont want a batch system.

Hang on a moment ... the IBC's you're talking about here are for the bio-digestor methane generation system I assume? ... and the sediment chamber is referring to a Microbial Fuel Cell ... or are you using modified IBC's for Microbial Fuel Cells ?

 

[large_ghostman]

LG - If you are burying metal electrodes (and rather reactive metals by the sound of it), power is presumably produced as the metal oxidises or breaks down in other ways.

No reactive metals, the exact opposite, look up Edison cell for a rough idea. The oxide is already coated onto the plate which is very un reactive and why it works best in alkali soil (Nickel). The whole thing is contained, but purely because i am in a acid region, the entire project is designed to be green, water tables and soil are top priority. I would love to show you the entire system, but end of the day this is a commercial project that attracted alot of attention.

Two universities are currently building small versions to check the figures,they have also found a small flaw in the design, this should be easy to sort out but its why i went to them in the first place.

 

[large_ghostman]

Also, to be objectively overall "energy neutral", should you allow for the energy use / carbon cost of manufacturing the materials in use, not just your use of them?

Yes and again i cheated and let the univerty guys work that out, manufacture,transport and the kitchen sink are taken into account. Its not some you could work out yourself, its best left to the experts to work out the Carbon numbers. We aim for negative not neutral, but we wot be claiming either until we get official figures back. Unfortunately alot of other system say they are carbon neutral (wind power), they take life time guesses of production etc.

Most wind turbine systems will end up using more carbon than they save, simply because they dont factor everything into the figures, i wanted to make it hard i wanted to see if we could reach the targets under the hardest conditions, if it fails then so be it, i am not afraid to have it tested robustly.

End of the day I want a truly green carbon neg system, i dont want a carbon neg system if you squint to the left with one eye shut and stand on one foot.

Thanks for the questions, it gives me an idea what people think, so when i do presentation slides i will include sections on questions like you raised. I assumed everyone would understand it was reactive metals and heavy metal waste, but i am in the middle. I have reached the point i understand it well, so i dont see it from others perspectives. So seriously, thanks for taking time to ask intelligent qustions, my answers seem terse, but i am fighting a dying wireless keyboard . Its driving me mad

 

[large_ghostman]

@ Western
I have started a part 2 thread, its self explanatory if you read the first post in it, i will go into the 'earth battery ' concept. While i wont be telling you how our anodes and cathodes are constructed, i will tell you some of the things we could have done, but we didnt do and why we didnt do them, i will also give you the next best cell to use as its openly available. I will list some of the shortcomings, we have mostly got around them with one or two to go, you have a couple of choices, use the next best thing or try and mitigate the downsides which is what we have done.

I understand your likely wanting detail on exactly how the cell is built, but for obvious reasons i cant do that at the moment, if we patent it or get other protection in place then that will change. But what it will show you is how we get around any damage to the environment.

 

[Western]

@ Western
I have started a part 2 thread, its self explanatory if you read the first post in it

Thanks LG ... I've learned a lot in the last couple weeks, but some more detail to fill in the blanks is appreciated.

While i wont be telling you how our anodes and cathodes are constructed,

Understandable and fair enough.

i will tell you some of the things we could have done, but we didnt do and why we didnt do them,

I need all the hand holding I can get ... so that sort of info is great.

i will also give you the next best cell to use as its openly available. I will list some of the shortcomings, we have mostly got around them with one or two to go, you have a couple of choices, use the next best thing or try and mitigate the downsides which is what we have done.

That's awesome ... while I enjoy experimenting, there's no point reinventing the wheel. I'd be very happy to start at the 'next best thing' ... rather than jump in and find I'm 6 steps back from that.

Thank you again.

 

[large_ghostman]

Thanks LG ... I've learned a lot in the last couple weeks, but some more detail to fill in the blanks is appreciated.




Understandable and fair enough.




I need all the hand holding I can get ... so that sort of info is great.




That's awesome ... while I enjoy experimenting, there's no point reinventing the wheel. I'd be very happy to start at the 'next best thing' ... rather than jump in and find I'm 6 steps back from that.

Thank you again.

Your welcome, if this wasnt a commercial venture that myself and some others (massive thank you to my business partner) hadnt sunk alot of time and money into, then i would happily tell you everything we know. I will however add you to our website, again it wont tell you everything, but it does give alot of detail as its intended for those we work with, and our customers. The really sensitive stuff is siply hidden from view by simple rank system.

Where it help you most is seeing some the systems we have designed for people and are up and running, you can ask them questions etc. It also details alot of what we tried and abandoned plus we say why we dropped it, thats likely to be the bit thats most helpful, all our customers are under NDA's so you can ask what you like and they will tell you anything they able.

The only group you dont get access to is potential customers , and the purely staff side where the pay info etc is lol. its none public so takes a while to get people a login, its a bit of a pain because you have to log into the server then the site, but it stops search engines listing it and keeps spammers etc out.

 

[Western]

Your welcome, if this wasnt a commercial venture that myself and some others (massive thank you to my business partner) hadnt sunk alot of time and money into, then i would happily tell you everything we know. I will however add you to our website, again it wont tell you everything, but it does give alot of detail as its intended for those we work with, and our customers. The really sensitive stuff is siply hidden from view by simple rank system.

Thank you ... appreciate it very much.

It also details alot of what we tried and abandoned plus we say why we dropped it, thats likely to be the bit thats most helpful,

Yes, definitely. As I said earlier ... no point trying to reinvent the wheel.

Looking forward to it.

 

[rjenkinsgb]

No reactive metals, the exact opposite, look up Edison cell for a rough idea. The oxide is already coated onto the plate which is very un reactive and why it works best in alkali soil (Nickel). The whole thing is contained, but purely because i am in a acid region, the entire project is designed to be green, water tables and soil are top priority. I would love to show you the entire system, but end of the day this is a commercial project that attracted alot of attention.

Two universities are currently building small versions to check the figures,they have also found a small flaw in the design, this should be easy to sort out but its why i went to them in the first place.

I'm familiar with the Edison cell - NiFe cells.

With those, energy storage and release is due to changes in the electrodes/plates; if you can get continuous power [ie. quote "make electric all day every day"] without replacing the electrodes, it can't be the same reactions.

NiFe cells / batteries are still in use are quite readily available, but not cheap so usually special purpose or fixed installations where lower energy densities do not matter.
Various Chinese manufacturers have really run with them, for some reason, eg.
**broken link removed**

 

[large_ghostman]

I'm familiar with the Edison cell - NiFe cells.

With those, energy storage and release is due to changes in the electrodes/plates; if you can get continuous power [ie. quote "make electric all day every day"] without replacing the electrodes, it can't be the same reactions.

NiFe cells / batteries are still in use are quite readily available, but not cheap so usually special purpose or fixed installations where lower energy densities do not matter.
Various Chinese manufacturers have really run with them, for some reason, eg.
**broken link removed**

There is a variant using Oxides, although its really important to avoid the ones with Cobalt salts in, they do perform better but it isnt something i would want to use. The idea of these cells is to use the clay as more of a electrolyte, this is the main reason peat soils are not good. You do get wear with peat soils pretty quickly. Most clay areas tend to be alkali and thats where the Nickel excels, now this is the chunk we miss out.................................................................... but if you do that the iron used is mainly from the clay soil anyway, the amount of time taken to use it all is unknown to me. Mine hasnt run anywhere near long enough to even mark the electrodes, plus mine are pretty hard to get to, you have to take the outer.................... off it first.

The idea is to put say a small amount of heat pump power or maybe a water coil pump or even solar power back in now and then, that should stop wear or reverse any. The one we are running dosnt do that however, we are taking power as much as possible from it, precisely to find out if/how much wear to expect. Yes you can buy the older Edison design cells and yes because of the Nickel they are expensive, for some reason most the ones i see use pure nickel, i dont understand this myself.

We use Nickel plate, although the plate is put on around the lowest limits of voltage and current we can get away with. You want lots of very thin deposits of nickel, try that and you will see an improvement, also unlike the normal Edison Cell look into Nickel Oxide, think about how to use the Oxide with Nickel plates, also take a look at the metal reactivity charts . Now thats a much bigger clue than i should be giving you!

There is alot more info on the closed site, take a look at that. I am pretty sure from what you have said you will be well on your way to near to where we are with that info, keep in mind the figures you see quoted for various things like current density when plating, MUST be as close to those figures as you can get. If you go lower it wont plate properly, any higher and the bubbles formed are bigger. You want the smallest bubbles you can get while still getting a decent strong plating.

Be prepared for the plating to take ~3+ weeks!! Also before i forget, The recipe given is our older one. Use it and again measure it out accurately, the only reason we use a different recipe now is because we use a slightly altered chemistry in the cell. There are a couple of sites that mention conductive expoxy and Oxides, most have various amounts of Colbalt Oxide in. Avoid those as the Cobalt salt changes as a charge is produced, i dont think the expoxy chemistry helps either with that but we didnt look into it that deeply. Cobalt is just of those metals we would use in soil at any cost, same with stainless steel.

 

[large_ghostman]

Contains or is likely to contain commercial information of a nature i am legally not allowed to sign the rights over to under the new terms and conditions. As this material was written before the new terms were agreed too, the new terms DO NOT APPLY to ANY material upto this point. Removal of this notice without permission constitutes an infringement on the legal rights in existance when written

 

[cowboybob]

Welcome to ETO, large_ghsostman! .

Is that true?

I saw the new user agreement but, to be honest, I never saw (or read) the old one, so I don't know the difference.

Your argument, however, makes sense.

Hey, Mods, what say you guys??

 

[large_ghostman]

The old one there is a difference plus there was also date issues . the new one you cant give full rights to something forever and still retain copywrite, legally that isnt possible. to make it worse new rules to data protection are to come in, i will grab the details, i emailed a lawyer there and the solictorhere. advice from both so far is for little ghost not to log in and agree, i think there is talk of take down notices for some content

 

[large_ghostman]

Also i got this today,this is a cut n paste from the email
The EU’s new data privacy law, the General Data Protection Regulation, goes into effect on May 25, 2018 and applies not only to EU-based organizations, but also to anyone who has customers or contacts in the EU.

 

[large_ghostman]

what i didnt know and part of the other legal argument is this bit in the new rules

So far the American Lawyer says things we post are covered under personal data in the new rules, the UK solicitor isnt sure and needs to check as they have only just got the legal judgments in. From a company perspective i have shared information i am legally obliged to keep ownership of. o the author name cannot log in and agree to the tick box, from the 25th of this month the new T&C will be illagal anyway

 

[large_ghostman]

Now the third issue.....

When you sign up for a new account (try it) dont actually create one but go to sign up. look at the info asked for and is mandatory.
Then read this

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection_en
that is the new regs in full

I can tell you one thing the USA lawyer told me..... They sure as hell didnt consult an attorney before creating that form!

 

[Mickster]

Looks like someone was looking to make a quick buck..

 

[large_ghostman]

No the new rules start on the 25th, but the wording on the tick box thing is in contadiction to itself under existing law. Especially if like me you post information from a company. They simply didnt have it properly checked out legally, cant blame them, its cost me $125 and £85 this end so far!!