Climategate: "Hide the Decline"

Some of you guys don't want to expand your knowledge! Instead of learning a little about Geology, you ridicule what you don't know!

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Thats sort of where many social and political problems come from. Many people may be otherwise smart, intelligent, and clear headed thinkers in most of their daily activities but unfortunately they also have that side of them that leans heavily on what would almost be a religious level of belief when it comes to what they dont understand.
To a skeptic or open minded person things they dont understand are taken with a intelligent and thoughtful approach of study, learn, understand, and repeat if needed.
For the faith believer however seem to feel they can safely take the blind eye deaf ear and dumb as a rock approach of not doing any of these actions but rather place everything in blind faith based on nonsense and unprovable and even more often far imagined ideas based on limited or greatly exaggerated knowledge and false conclusions.

To the logical mind everything has to have a reason, method, and provable facts to back it up.
To the faith believer the evidence is all around them but can not and will not be questioned or proven until its time is right which by then is usually so long after the event they cant prove they where ever right or wrong therefore they must have been right any way.

I go to war with you because my god said I would win. But wait, Your god said to go to war with me because you will win.
Thats gets even more puzzling when it comes down to the fact both of us follow the same god. Now what?
For the faith believer he already knows his side will win regardless of the actual ending or personal outcome.
The wise and intelligent person already knows who wins in war and he knows full well god had nothing to do with either side.

Ok, tcm. I did not see one sentence with CO2 emissions or the word GW or Climate.

Please edit.

I on the other hand used the word "Gas"


kv

TCM kind of sums it up for me, it just doesn't add up. I don't claim to understand everything, or really have much interest in reading through a bunch of garbage, that will make it all crystal clear. It should already make some sense to begin with. I've been around long enough to get a pretty good idea of when someone is trying to run a scam on me, and this CO2/Climate Change stuff smells bad. I can't provide data or fancy graphs to prove anything, it just doesn't flow right. It's a big world, with a lot going on, for which we only understand a little of how stuff interacts. The huge focus, on one small aspect, is what bothers me most. I have some serious doubts that even if we do have some control over CO2 levels, globally, it will have much influence over global warming. How much of the Earth's surface is the US and China combined? The two biggest CO2 contributors, and only a small fraction of the planet. I think there are a lot of people, this past week, who would welcome a little global warming right now. Been pretty rough up north, not that great here either (down in the low 50's) .

How clear is the message, when the data has to be so heavily manipulated? Most of the graphs I've seen have some small print, acknowledging, that it was filtered, adjusted, offset. Certain years, are derived from other sources, some are just guessing (don't have a handy technical sounding term for it).

I've seen some pretty extreme weather over the years of my life, seems kind of normal to expect. How do we know that Global Warming is going to be such a bad thing. Personally, I find hot weather easier to deal with, than cold. We all know that after the warming, comes the Ice Age.

Economy wise, yes it's good for everybody to conserve our resources, and quit dumping garbage into our environment. CO2 is a relatively minor concern, compared to most of the other crap we dump daily, and shouldn't be our main focus. I'm sure that will be reduce in the process of becoming more efficient anyway. We should be working on finding a cheaper, cleaner source of energy, that will be easily implemented in any country, since nuclear is so restricted, and not exactly a good thing. We need to get out of the single-use, disposable products. Convenience isn't a good enough reason to waste. How many people only drink one 12 ounce can of beer? Well, I prefer bottles, and maybe drink 4 or 5 per year, but most people drink 6 or more, in a couple of hours.

I haven't been sold on the CO2 being the major cause, or even related to the current Climate Change, nor that Global Warming is entirely a bad thing. Just seems like a lot of underhanded stuff going on. When I feel like I'm being pushed into something, it usually means bad things. Even if all the worst-case stuff happens, we will have plenty of time to grow and adjust, if we aren't wasting our time fighting, or focused on nonsense causes.

ke5frf said:

I've said this before. I believe climate change is real, has a human influence, and responsible mitigation over the short and long term is in order. But economics is equally important. The evidence is here. The top scientist involved have cast their ethics aside to play the role of activist, overplaying the certainties and misrepresenting the accuracies of the data in order to establish political power and engineer tax-payer funded policy to their geo-socialist ends.

Truly amazing.

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I haven't seen any climate change scientists becoming politicians yet, I have seen lots of badly concocked policies made by goverments, basically the scientists are telling us facts and the goverment are the ones that take to scaremongering and pushing new taxes through.

I said this a long time ago on here: why isn't the gov tax put on flying actively used for researching and providing cleaner energy ? thery say the tax is because of the pollution flying causes but the money is not being used to solve the problem.

There are two parts at play here. the scientists that want change and the goverment that use any exscuse to put more taxes on. of course common mortals can't tell the difference between the 2 !

Any scientist that tells you a fact should be dragged out and shot, because they aren't really a scientist. Any good scientist should first tell you there is no such thing as facts, only data and theories and they are ever evolving. Mix politics in and you get lies to reach a goal, not a good mix.

There are more than two parts to play here because science has almost no clue whatsoever about our own climate and the dynamic systems involved in planetary ecology, we understand narrow slivers of data and extrapolate; often if not always to wrong conclusions from that data to further understand the systems under study. We LEARN, we never truly know, no one should EVER be afraid of being wrong, because every time someone is wrong we prove that that is not the way we should be leaning. Problem is, in this situation EVERYONE thinks THEY are right, and are fighting to the brink of complete failure to prove it. In the end no one is going to be right.

Anyone that tells you anything is concrete fact will come to pass or is certifiable insane. Some very basic laws are considered fact, like thermodynamic law, but those laws break down on a Quanutum scale and the true nature of our own universe is still current in dispute..

Worse than that politics are rampant for one goal or another, basically to get rich and look like a good guy to the public so you get elected. When the two mix you get Climategate.

Obviously nothing is working. The entire slate needs to be wipe clean and started fresh, problem is that'll never happen. The science is forever tainted because politics came into play.

Any scientist that tells you a fact should be dragged out and shot, because they aren't really a scientist. Any good scientist should first tell you there is no such thing as facts

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Imagine a man in a group of people that steps out of the group and smacks you across the ribcage with a two by four piece of lumber. While you are reeling on the floor moaning, one of the group members says" Damn, I bet that hurt" I am sure the consensus of the other group members would be that "that was a fact".

Point is, certain things are accepted as facts, such as I will die someday.

well it goes both ways, so while those that think we are responsable for climate change may not be right so are the dipsticks that insist it is not happening at risk of being wrong and even more so because I've heard the weirdedst theories from the non belivers, you can just see how some of them want to hang on to their wasteful ways of living

Thunderchild said:

well it goes both ways, so while those that think we are responsable for climate change may not be right so are the dipsticks that insist it is not happening at risk of being wrong and even more so because I've heard the weirdedst theories from the non belivers, you can just see how some of them want to hang on to their wasteful ways of living

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Non believers? Does that include everybody that doesn't fully support all the taxes and regulations, that are being considered to save humanity.

The people that believe the climate changes are normal and natural, and don't believe all the doomsday visions.

Those that don't believe CO2 is the sole cause of the current situation, and the current proposals will only waste time and valuable resources, make most people poorer, and unable to afford to make better choices for themselves.

It's not a one sided issue, there are different views. To consider everyone not marching in the parade, lesser for it, seems to give another perspective on this...

Non believers? Does that include everybody that doesn't fully support all the taxes and regulations, that are being considered to save humanity.

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Hence, The Inconvenient Truth.

I'm afraid that the goverments have just taken advantage of public opinion and used it as an exscuse for more taxes, so they tax something because it polutes, what do they do with the money ? just goes into the goverment pot which may be used for making another coal power station. As i said before, this tax on flying, its a gov scam because the money is not being used to help provide a non poluting solutuion. people need to wake up and stop confusing the realities of climate change with the taxes put on everything in the name of being green. Yes I beleive that climate change is happening and we need to do our best to not be a major cause in it but I also hate all of the "green" taxes because unlike the 99% of confused idiots out there I know they are a rip off. at the end of the day we will run ouit of fossil fuels and then there will be a major crisis but 99% of people are too stupid and ignorant to even consider this.

Thunderchild said:

I'm afraid that the goverments have just taken advantage of public opinion and used it as an exscuse for more taxes, so they tax something because it polutes, what do they do with the money ? just goes into the goverment pot which may be used for making another coal power station. As i said before, this tax on flying, its a gov scam because the money is not being used to help provide a non poluting solutuion. people need to wake up and stop confusing the realities of climate change with the taxes put on everything in the name of being green. Yes I beleive that climate change is happening and we need to do our best to not be a major cause in it but I also hate all of the "green" taxes because unlike the 99% of confused idiots out there I know they are a rip off. at the end of the day we will run ouit of fossil fuels and then there will be a major crisis but 99% of people are too stupid and ignorant to even consider this.

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But they haven't...

They have taken advantage of incomplete, manipulated, truncated data, made into a nice pretty graph to fit a supposed doomsday hypothesis. A hypothesis that places man at the centre and puts blame on his shoulders.

Guilt is an effective tool toward emptying people's pockets.

I don't think anyone sees paying taxes a way to pay their debt to nature, its very obviously a gov scam

Mike, with the 2X4 scenario. Look at professional wrestling, look at the stuff they do, none of which is as violent or painful as it looks. If care were taken you could fool those people into thinking a fight took place when one hadn't. The same observations would have lied, your example is a one sided look at something that can have more than one possible 'truth'

Also look as far as the permenancy of death goes just ask someone who believes in reincarnation or has a religious view of an afterlife, they might disagree with you.

So my statement still stands. Good science has NOTHING to do with fact.
You propose a theory, you gather data, you analys the data draw new conclusions and test those etc.. etc.. etc.. Any asumption that isn't testable or isn't concretly verified by independant sources should not be part of ANY science, it simply is how the scientific process works.

Thunderchild said:

... Yes I beleive that climate change is happening and we need to do our best to not be a major cause in it but I also hate all of the "green" taxes because unlike the 99% of confused idiots out there I know they are a rip off. at the end of the day we will run ouit of fossil fuels and then there will be a major crisis but 99% of people are too stupid and ignorant to even consider this.

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I agree with the opening statement of what I have quoted in your post, but take offense with the part in bold

It reeks of arrogance and self-inflated elitism........"99% of people are 'confused idiots', 'stupid' and 'ignorant' "...... gimme a break man.

Please explain how you justify your own placement in the 1% bracket...

most people assosiate evironmental issues with more taxes, many people cringe when they here of global warming knowing that it may mean more taxes and hence try to defy it. the fact is that the goveremnt is using this as an exscuse to rip more taxes out of people while they get anoyed with scientists behind warning us about globla warming, now while the wrong people hate the wrong people the gov sit there laughing taking our money. if we need more money we can pull out of the two phoney wars we are playing at and start using that money to look after the people that paid it in stead of making arms companies richer.

most people do not even think of what life will be like when we have run out of fossil fuels, what will YOU do when petrol costs £ 10 per litre because it has become so rare and exspensive to find and get ? people seem to think they can drive from here to kingdom come and there will always be petrol to put in their cars, well there won't ! what are we going to make our electricity out of when we run out of oil and coal ? how about paying £ 1 / KW of electricity instead of 20-25 pence ? don't people understand that there is a limit to earths resources ???

with the rise of the cost of energy transporting anything will be exspensive as will manufacturing it and food costs, as it is many people in the UK cannot afford to live comfortably or struggle, what will happen when living costs go up ? the pay won't I'll bet you that.

Haven't you noticed how petrol goes up in price when we need a bit more in winter ? why ? because those nice people over in Arabia know that they have us by the balls and can put the price up as and when they want (but not enough for us to declare war on them), yes its called supply and demand, what happens when the supply is 1/10 the demand ?

Thunderchild even if we multiplied our energy usage by a factor of 10 we couldn't even put a microscopic dent in the available resources this planet has available. Our current problem, and believe me it is OUR problem, is our ability to utiliize and extract energy efficiently. Science is advancing and it will continue to expand our abilities to do so though. While relying on science to provide a magical eventual super efficient energy source is just a bad idea, and less waste of energy is a good idea believe me the energy demand will continue to grow and science will continue to step up it's ability to provide the supply.

If we ever in our use of energy unbalance the system so much that we cause a shift that damages our ability to survive on this planet believe me we're the only ones that should be worried cause mother nature will just shrug us off and start over without even an afterthought. Such changes have occurred because of this planets EXISTING energy imbalances in the past even before humans existed, and we barely understand even a fraction of what occured let alone can say we can predict what will happen in the future. It's pure human arrogance to think that we actually have that much control or understanding of this planet in the first place.

Good points!
In a way its sort of like a smart mans war.
You dont fight it yourself but rather convince your two enemies or just two groups you feel superior to to fight it out until one defeats the other. Then you simply over take the winner and the looser in their weakened states by appearing to be friendly and helpful when in fact all your doing now placing your resources and control into their territories to level that they can not possibly fight back against.
By the time they do realize that you took them over and where not in fact just helping them out its already too late.

Get the Eco nuts to use up everything they have trying to force the non believers to follow their beliefs and let the non believers use up all of their resources trying to prevent the believers from getting stupid laws passed that will regulate nothing of any real importance.
Then give both middle point of compromise that neither likes or benefits from but allows you majority control over both sides interests.

Anyone else see this possibility in the big picture?

well then maybe its time we start campaigning for energy prices to be lowered instead if we have all this energy easily available then power and petrol companies can lower their prices. last time i heard we had 60 years worth of oil left so when did we discover enough oil to last us for longer than we care to bother about working it out ?

if we want to talk about OTT theories what about the people that rekon its costas more energy to make a solar panel that that panel will generate, I haven't fogotten ending that discussion on here (was a few years ago now) with some simple math, might it be these same people that rekon global warming and the part fossil fuels have in it is not true, I think i see a pattern developing

Every year oil drilling technology gets better and better. In 60 years we'll have extended that 'limit' out, and other technologies will be available to sumplement or replace oil. People want it, people need it, the world will find a way to get it. Basic supply and demand, just gonna be a whole lot of bumps on the way.

One thing I like to remind people whenever conversations like this come up is that EVERY single last drop of oil that we're taking out of the ground, CAME from natural sources. We're doing NOTHING but releasing energy that was stored. Yeah that'll upset things a bit to some degree, adding energy to a system will, however and again, this is insignificant in relation to the energies already lose in the world.

Also look as far as the permenancy of death goes just ask someone who believes in reincarnation or has a religious view of an afterlife, they might disagree with you.
So my statement still stands. Good science has NOTHING to do with fact.

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Clever, but you are trifling in addition to skewing the context of my original statement. I never mentioned anything about the permanency of death, rather I stated that it is a fact that someday I will die, as in to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead. This is undisputed and without question as my heart will eventually stop, my blood will cease to flow, brain activity will end and rigor will set in. This is a fact.

Many science experiments use facts to confirm an observation such as if I hold a steel ball and let it go, it wall drop to the ground and this is a fact. Now why the ball drops is another question and you can argue with Newton and Einstein on that one.