delay "ON", up to 16 different times, to control relays

[sfttailpaul]

Hello,
I am attempting to build a control circuit to operate (up to) 16 relays that are DPDT. The initial control would utilize one of the many available relay boards found on EBAY or similar site. These low V/A relay boards would be the "trigger" signal to operate high current contactors (operating 1K watt lighting from each NO & NC outputs). My theory is that the NC signal would be live to one bank of contactors (#1 thru #16) and then when the NO is activated, it would operate a second bank of contactors (#1 thru #16). Most of the "ready made" relay boards have provision for a trigger input and this is where I'm at a loss. I simply cannot find a means to have this trigger sent to (up to) 16 different delays. The delay would hopefully, be adjustable but each separate delay would be the same, IE, relay #1 is delayed "on" by 90 seconds, relay #2 is delayed 180 seconds (the same 90 second delay), relay #3 is delayed 270 seconds (again the same 90 second delay), and so on, all the way to relay #16, the final 90 seconds would have had a total of 16 X 90 sec. = 24 minutes from the initial signal to the final one. The signal needs to operate 16 different outputs, each 90 seconds apart. The "adjustable" would change the "common delay" that could be from 30 seconds to 3-5 minutes. Very flexible with the common delay times but the need for up to 16 different control signals is the key here. There would be a master timer which would turn "ON" for a specific period of time (ultimately would be energizing all the NO relays) and then when it was "OFF" all of the NC terminals would be energized. The point I am trying to get at is a soft start for this high energy resistive lighting (show effects) with a "flip" effect so that the ballasts are always on and operating either the NO bank or the NC bank for a total of 32 single contactors...
Can anyone on here help me? I don't have money to pay someone BUT I do have lots of things to barter with in payment for someone's time and expertise. Please, if anyone can help me with this design, I would be forever grateful. This is a project for myself that can also lead to building several more of these control units. Once I can do the 16 different signals (or more even better), I could simply use what I needed to do smaller versions like 4/8/12, etc...

 

[Lourens]

How about using a microcontroller. I have a graphics compiler for pic controllers which makes this kind of application a trivial excersize, and you can simulate the application to see it working in real time before picking up a soldering iron.

 

[eTech]

How about using a microcontroller. I have a graphics compiler for pic controllers which makes this kind of application a trivial excersize, and you can simulate the application to see it working in real time before picking up a soldering iron.

Hi

I'm working on a similar project.

Where can I get the compiler?

 

[sfttailpaul]

How about using a microcontroller. I have a graphics compiler for pic controllers which makes this kind of application a trivial excersize, and you can simulate the application to see it working in real time before picking up a soldering iron.

Hello Lourens. Thank you for your quick reply.
OK, that's great! Easy, obviously, for you. I need the circuit and schematic as well as a list of all the parts. God, a board would be even more super and fantastic. It would be great fun for you and you'd be doing a good deed for another human being... I could help by drilling the holes! LOL! Is this something you'd be interested in doing for me? For barter of course, your time is valuable. I have a lot of kool stuff I have. If we can come to terms, I'd need a brief summary of your interests to get an idea to see what you'd fancy. Lots of collectable things. I am not an engineer, rather I share the passion in electronics, dabble in this have since 1960, and had I been mature, I would have gone to school for this back when the tube age was the bomb! I cannot program, and barely understand all the pins on most microprocessors. My e-mail direct is: sfttailpaul@aol.com should you like to discuss this further. Again, thank you for your time,
Sincerely,
Paul

 

[alec_t]

Although a micro is probably the best option you could also do this with a few logic ICs (counter, decoder. etc).

 

[sfttailpaul]

Although a micro is probably the best option you could also do this with a few logic ICs (counter, decoder. etc).

alec_t,
I appreciate your response. I am still at a loss because what I am searching for, is someone to deign this for me so that either I can take it from the schematic as long as everything is listed with correct values and matching list of parts, OR that this person was really into it and could actually make the board drawing/parts and list. Either way, I would barter for the time with goods I have as I have no cash to pay with but do have a lot of great stuff. This has been the jest of my post from the start.
Thank you,
Paul

 

[Lourens]

eTech, the compiler was posted on this forum some months ago but i think with the disk crash we had there is a problem with downloading. I can post it again in this thread if you want a copy.

Paul, to use the graphics compiler you do not need to know anything about programming, just a logical mind. It is a bit more than a compiler, it is more like drawing where you use function blocks and interconnect them. The function blocks (130) cover from logic gates, timers, maths, controllers (PID) communications (I2C master), sequencing. With the simulator you can test and debug. The compiler produces a hex file for burning into your pic. With a rs232 link you can then test the actual application in a similat way as the simulator. The hex file you can use on 18F2520 (or 2420). Making the hardware is no big effort, i use veroboard to make my test circuits. Will send you a mail with more detail.
The file attached will tell you a bit more about the program, but like learning to ride a bicycle - cannot be done via correspondence.

 

[sfttailpaul]

eTech, the compiler was posted on this forum some months ago but i think with the disk crash we had there is a problem with downloading. I can post it again in this thread if you want a copy.

Paul, to use the graphics compiler you do not need to know anything about programming, just a logical mind. It is a bit more than a compiler, it is more like drawing where you use function blocks and interconnect them. The function blocks (130) cover from logic gates, timers, maths, controllers (PID) communications (I2C master), sequencing. With the simulator you can test and debug. The compiler produces a hex file for burning into your pic. With a rs232 link you can then test the actual application in a similat way as the simulator. The hex file you can use on 18F2520 (or 2420). Making the hardware is no big effort, i use veroboard to make my test circuits. Will send you a mail with more detail.
The file attached will tell you a bit more about the program, but like learning to ride a bicycle - cannot be done via correspondence.

Wow!!! Thank you for that. I went and read it two times and came away with more than when I started BUT, I am still at a loss...
First off, I wish to apologize to you as well as the community that read this. Who am I to think that someone would simply drop what they're involved in and take on my project. What I really need is someone like you to get the correct part and program it for me, for a fee of course, and draw the schematic for this. I could take it from there provided I had the list of parts and identification on the board, etc.
When I read the download, I might as well have been on another planet. My background is Carpentry, so I am analytical and reasonably intelligent, but Electronics, just like any other Industry/Profession, has a completely different language which is nearly impossible to understand (in a short period of time, a pre-requisite to do) what you're talking about above. I sincerely appreciate what you wrote but need more guidance... Thanks you again,
Paul

 

[eTech]

eTech, the compiler was posted on this forum some months ago but i think with the disk crash we had there is a problem with downloading. I can post it again in this thread if you want a copy.

Paul, to use the graphics compiler you do not need to know anything about programming, just a logical mind. It is a bit more than a compiler, it is more like drawing where you use function blocks and interconnect them. The function blocks (130) cover from logic gates, timers, maths, controllers (PID) communications (I2C master), sequencing. With the simulator you can test and debug. The compiler produces a hex file for burning into your pic. With a rs232 link you can then test the actual application in a similat way as the simulator. The hex file you can use on 18F2520 (or 2420). Making the hardware is no big effort, i use veroboard to make my test circuits. Will send you a mail with more detail.
The file attached will tell you a bit more about the program, but like learning to ride a bicycle - cannot be done via correspondence.

Hi Lourens..

Please repost the compiler...that would be great!!

thanks

 

[alec_t]

@Lorens
A link to, or upload of, that compiler would be appreciated. Sounds like a handy tool.

@sfttailpaul
Can you post a link to the relay board you have in mind, so that we can get details of its trigger requirements?

 

[Lourens]

Hi eTech/Paul
Here is the compiler setup.... spending 2 minutes on the ReadMeFirst file is time well invested.
Once you have installed the compiler there is some documentation in C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION, the most important being the ERROR LIST in .....\GENERAL for when you compile and get error messages.

 

[sfttailpaul]

eTech, the compiler was posted on this forum some months ago but i think with the disk crash we had there is a problem with downloading. I can post it again in this thread if you want a copy.

Paul, to use the graphics compiler you do not need to know anything about programming, just a logical mind. It is a bit more than a compiler, it is more like drawing where you use function blocks and interconnect them. The function blocks (130) cover from logic gates, timers, maths, controllers (PID) communications (I2C master), sequencing. With the simulator you can test and debug. The compiler produces a hex file for burning into your pic. With a rs232 link you can then test the actual application in a similat way as the simulator. The hex file you can use on 18F2520 (or 2420). Making the hardware is no big effort, i use veroboard to make my test circuits. Will send you a mail with more detail.
The file attached will tell you a bit more about the program, but like learning to ride a bicycle - cannot be done via correspondence.

Lourens, I found this on eBay: **broken link removed**
Is this what you are talking about? Again, all the abbreviated code I cannot understand. This particular board comes with the PIC18F4520, but there are several other boards, some with many extra modules that plug into them. This whole site is devoted to this technology.
I'll go and post the relay board I will be using. It has 8 @ DPDT relays on it. 12VDC coil and just about any value to run through the NO/NC contacts to send to the coil of the contactors, that I want to run through and trigger the contactors, but 12VDC and 110VAC would be the most common available coil on the contactors (they will be XXVac/dc coil and DPST 250VAC contacts).
The relay board (eBay also) is: **broken link removed** WHEN YOU OPEN THIS LINK, SCROLL DOWN, THERE ARE ADS FOR OTHER ITEMS SHOWN FIRST. THE BOARD IS ABOUT A 1/2 PAGE DOWN...

Thank you to everyone who's been helping me, you will never know how appreciative I am for anything you can lend my way...
Paul

 

[sfttailpaul]

Hi eTech/Paul
Here is the compiler setup.... spending 2 minutes on the ReadMeFirst file is time well invested.
Once you have installed the compiler there is some documentation in C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION, the most important being the ERROR LIST in .....\GENERAL for when you compile and get error messages.

THANK YOU LOURENS! I read the READ ME First, that was easy. The VPS compiler won't open on my Lap Top (Win 8) so I'll have to find an old computer that has XP on it to download it. Incidentally, I do have a USB/RS232 board to use. Am I not needing the board for the PIC18F4520 AND BOARD I POSTED PREVIOUS?
Thank you for all of your time,
Paul

 

[eTech]

Hi eTech/Paul
Here is the compiler setup.... spending 2 minutes on the ReadMeFirst file is time well invested.
Once you have installed the compiler there is some documentation in C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION, the most important being the ERROR LIST in .....\GENERAL for when you compile and get error messages.

Thanks Lourens,

I've installed it and have it working...

A couple of questions...

1. Do you have a copy of the documentation?

2. Do you have a sample project I could use to help get me going with the user interface?
For example, add pushbuton input, perform some logic, produce output?

thanks
eT

 

[Lourens]

Hi Paul
Did you manage to run the install exe file on WIN8? If you could then there should be a new icon on your desktop to run VPS. (also check if there is a directory C:\LLG_CB) Do you get an error message if you try to run VPS and what is the message saying?

Regarding the PIC18F4520 board: VPS generate code that require an 8MHZ crystal. For the basic hardware required have a look at the Getting Started file in C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION\GENERAL (that is to say if you managed to install VPS)

The relay board looks good and you can connect the pic outputs directly BUT what are you going to switch with the contacts because the relays on the board (RY 12W-K) can switch maximum 0.5Amp at 120VAC. They seem to be designed for switching signals (not power). A simple calculation to check the current your relay is going to switch is Load (in WATT)/Voltage. The voltage in your case is probably 230VAC. So for a 1kWATT lamp you are going to switch roughly 4.5Amp. And also remember these voltages are lethal, keep things tidy and insulated.

 

[sfttailpaul]

Hi Paul
Did you manage to run the install exe file on WIN8? If you could then there should be a new icon on your desktop to run VPS. (also check if there is a directory C:\LLG_CB) Do you get an error message if you try to run VPS and what is the message saying?

Regarding the PIC18F4520 board: VPS generate code that require an 8MHZ crystal. For the basic hardware required have a look at the Getting Started file in C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION\GENERAL (that is to say if you managed to install VPS)

The relay board looks good and you can connect the pic outputs directly BUT what are you going to switch with the contacts because the relays on the board (RY 12W-K) can switch maximum 0.5Amp at 120VAC. They seem to be designed for switching signals (not power). A simple calculation to check the current your relay is going to switch is Load (in WATT)/Voltage. The voltage in your case is probably 230VAC. So for a 1kWATT lamp you are going to switch roughly 4.5Amp. And also remember these voltages are lethal, keep things tidy and insulated.

Lourens,
**broken link removed**

I cannot download the VPS as of yet, because the WIN 8 "protects the screen" and won't let it d'load... I am trying to get one of my older computers working; has XP Pro on it. Then I can do the download... Sorry.
I planed to have this "4520 control circuit/board" using the 4520 (hopefully because that is readily available, but could install in the board I just sent link for) to send the ON "signal" to the relay board's inputs, then run 12VDC through the relays there to send that "signal" to the 12VDC coil on the high current contactors. The same 12VDC power would come from a separate source say like 1A or more depending what I need. I can make just about any amperage 12VDC power source to run these two factions. I am assuming this "custom made time delay control circuit" will operate with either/or 3.3VDC or 5VDC...
I found this board, think it has more and the 4520 is "open" so that once programmed, it could be removed?

 

[Lourens]

Hi eTech

Good......
Documentation is about 7MB, so i am currently making up a few batches to post later in the week
For the Getting Started doc see C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION \GENERAL
Also in ....DOCUMENTATION\..... (dont remember exactly) there are a few sample projects.
Be sure to read the document about registration because your current installation is limited to 2 code pages.

 

[Lourens]

Hi Paul
I think your download problem might be the firewall setting of your pc that is protecting against .exe files. I will add to this post the setup file with the extention modified to .brd, so if you are able to download it be sure to change it back to .exe

Your plan to use the 8-channel relay board as interposing relays to the power contactors is the right thing. The 4520 pic chip uses 5VDC and you must make sure the controller board uses an 8MHZ crystal. The VPS software uses the pic's internal PPL multiplier to have an effective 32MHZ clock signal.

 

[sfttailpaul]

Hi Paul
I think your download problem might be the firewall setting of your pc that is protecting against .exe files. I will add to this post the setup file with the extention modified to .brd, so if you are able to download it be sure to change it back to .exe

Your plan to use the 8-channel relay board as interposing relays to the power contactors is the right thing. The 4520 pic chip uses 5VDC and you must make sure the controller board uses an 8MHZ crystal. The VPS software uses the pic's internal PPL multiplier to have an effective 32MHZ clock signal.

Sorry, but WIN 8 doesn't like that ".brd" either. I will PM you with more information I have found. Thank you!

 

[eTech]

Hi eTech

Good......
Documentation is about 7MB, so i am currently making up a few batches to post later in the week
For the Getting Started doc see C:\LLG_CB\DOCUMENTATION \GENERAL
Also in ....DOCUMENTATION\..... (dont remember exactly) there are a few sample projects.
Be sure to read the document about registration because your current installation is limited to 2 code pages.

Hi

I ran into a couple of problems.

I running Win7 x64.

1. I was following the sample project and got to the step where I needed to compile. I clicked the compile button, and got a message "Project file path exceeds 64 characters".
When I click "OK" a small popup window appears entitled "CB_PIC01", It displays the following:

Error information:
Error number: 233
Page name: -
FBlock type:-
FBlock exec nr: 0
FBlock in/out nr: -

I have to click OK after which nothing happens.
My project file is on a different disk drive. So if I move it under the the default Sample_Projects folder and attempt to compile the same messages appears.

I tried compiling one of the existing sample projects. It successfully complies, but when I click OK, it displays the CB_PIC01 error I described above, except with error no 121. It does, however, run after compiling, in the simulator.

My sample project file is attached.

Can you help?

eT