Dell Hell

3v0 said:

It is unfair to blame Dell, HP, Gateway for providing the machines and service the public is willing to buy.

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It is completely fair to blame them for claiming to provide machines and support of a certain level of quality when they actually do neither, however. If they know that market forces prevent them from fulfilling their claims, they should not make those claims.


Torben

Hear, hear

Not so.

People vote for what they want with their pocketbooks(credit cards). Gateway started out building good machines but people preferred the cheap ones.

Most of the advertising is very touche feelie. Exactly what claims are false? The computers compute and the quality of support is relative. If the claims were wrong enough the makers would be in court. Everyone loves to sue.

I do not like it anymore then anyone else. But the makers build what consumers want. If a maker were to package a machine that cost 35% more with better quality and support would you buy it ? How many would ?

Torben said:

It is completely fair to blame them for claiming to provide machines and support of a certain level of quality when they actually do neither, however. If they know that market forces prevent them from fulfilling their claims, they should not make those claims.
Torben

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Since Dell, Gateway, etc. use exactly the same components as everyone else when putting machines together, the point is, they cannot give you a better machine, but they can stuff it up more than the next guy down the road, and then charge you more for it........

There is a wide seletion of parts to choose from and quality varies. They mostly use what is least expensive Again what people will buy. No one other the the consumers force them to use the same cheap parts.


EDIT:
Most of the makers provide a 2nd better line of computers. With HP the consumer computer was the Pavilion, the good one was the Vectra. With Dell it is Dimension and Opteron, I do not know the names for Gatway etc.

arrie said:

Since Dell, Gateway, etc. use exactly the same components as everyone else when putting machines together, the point is, they cannot give you a better machine, but they can stuff it up more than the next guy down the road, and then charge you more for it........

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3v0 said:

Not so.

People vote for what they want with their pocketbooks(credit cards). Gateway started out building good machines but people preferred the cheap ones.

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I neither said nor implied that it's a bad thing that there are companies who provide cheap-and-cheerful products for those who want that.

3v0 said:

Most of the advertising is very touche feelie. Exactly what claims are false? The computers compute and the quality of support is relative. If the claims were wrong enough the makers would be in court. Everyone loves to sue.

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For evidence of false claims of support, there are any number of stories like Hank's where <insert company name here> has a certain level of support clearly spelled out in the support contract which is not met if that support is actually called upon.

And Dell has been sued for exactly this reason, more than once:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/disgruntled-dell-customer-finds-crafty-path-to-lawsuit-settlemen/

http://news.cnet.com/Dell-sued-over...3-5587443.html?part=rss&tag=5587315&subj=news

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/16/new-york-attorney-general-files-dell-deception-lawsuit/

In the above lawsuit, Dell was found guilty, and the judge had this to say:

Justice Joseph C. Teresi said in his decision, “Dell has engaged in repeated misleading, deceptive and unlawful business conduct, including false and deceptive advertising of financing promotions and the terms of warranties, fraudulent, misleading and deceptive practices in credit financing and failure to provide warranty service and rebates.”

Source: **broken link removed**

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3v0 said:

I do not like it anymore then anyone else. But the makers build what consumers want. If a maker were to package a machine that cost 35% more with better quality and support would you buy it ? How many would ?

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That's not my point at all. My point is that if they state that a machine will be provided in a certain condition and with certain parts, that is what they must be expected to deliver. If they state that their service department will fulfil certain responsibilities, they must deliver on that as well. It's simple contract law.

The problem (and what I said) is simply that they say something and then do not deliver on that. If they didn't make that claim, that would be fine. If they honoured their claims, that would be fine too. What is not fine is making the claims and then not honouring them. That's all.

In fact, I do pay a little more for my machines because I buy them from smaller vendors or buy the parts and assemble myself. In this way there are only hardware manufacturers' warranties to deal with, and no wondering about whether or not Dell (or whoever) can be trusted to keep their promises.


Torben

Yes false advertizing and bait and switch are wrong. But my point is that we as consumers have driven the quality of consumer computers down.

EDIT: I should have been paying more attention to the original topic. Both points are valid but mine was not the subject at hand. My Bad

Unfortunately that was because misinformed users are buying without knowing the difference.
Everyone I know, who in any case know more about computers, insist on better quality components. But these same people will not fork out a couple of thousand bucks for a motherboard for example, but will stick with higher quality manufacturers, such as Asus, etc.
These same people will not touch asrock or biostar or any funny makers.

So one can then blame the lack of knowledge on the part of the consumer who just goes and buy anything.

Some component sales figures should reveal interesting reading, but I doubt one would get such data easily.

Computers are cheap and have improved in performance through healthy competition.

I wish the same thing would have happened with software as we'd now have a choice between several great operating systems instead of one poor one.

As far as monitors go, the Dell 2408WFP is one of the best. I just wish they would take the defective one back. I agree most of their machines are crap - my 2408WFP is for an E8400 Core 2 Duo box I built myself.

3v0 said:

Yes false advertizing and bait and switch are wrong. But my point is that we as consumers have driven the quality of consumer computers down.

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Now that I can agree with 100%--and it's not just computers. I can buy a new angle grinder for less than I can get a set of replacement grinding discs for. And the discs last longer than the grinders, too.


Torben

I hate dell. I have NEVER liked ANY of their products. Their monitors are tolerable, but their computers just plain SUCK. they are built to fail. simple as that.

Our school used dell optiplexes for a while... i was finally able to convince the tech coordinator to scrap them due to their inability for stability! They were terrible machines...

Every time a customer has a problem with a dell, i cringe...

My advice: ALWAYS - and i mean ALWAYS - build up a custom whitebox. I get parts from Newegg.com for machines. Never have i bought a compy from a dealer. NEVER! Better yet, build up a white box and put linux on it. I have heard nice things about Fedora (ubuntu is nice, but it is a bit buggy, and the repos are always out of date...)

I built up a nice Shuttle XPC from newegg for less than $700. Top of the line a year ago... now it is showing it's age...

The Dell I bought in 1998 for college was quite good. I think it might still be living somewhere right now, I can't remember who I gave it to. I think it was post-2000 that they went to crap. I had Dell's at both of my previous employers. And they both sucked.

Their monitors are the benchmark though. It's the only reason this 'dude' bought a dell. They supposedly use the same panels as Apple.

Strike my apologetics for Dell monitors. I just noticed the new one has developed a pink tinge in the lower left quadrant.

**** **** ****.

arrie said:

Unfortunately that was because misinformed users are buying without knowing the difference. Everyone I know, who in any case know more about computers, insist on better quality components. But these same people will not fork out a couple of thousand bucks for a motherboard for example, but will stick with higher quality manufacturers, such as Asus, etc. These same people will not touch asrock or biostar or any funny makers.

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1. Me thinks you are getting a bit esoteric here with your comments. I am one of those same people owning an ASUS mobo and Corsair ram, etc. No doubt the brands you mention are top shelf but everyone has their budgetary limits they set for their specific wants. Some of these same people have different priorities and an ASUS mobo suffices well for them as does a Gateway system. Instead, they may be spending more of their descretionary funds on a yacht, motorcycle, an upscale home, a fancy sports car, etc. I remember when I was really into hi-fi audio and only settled for esoteric brands like McIntosh, Studer Revox, Azden, Phase Linear, etc. Names that were alien to most folks and at prices only royalty could afford to pay. We here have an advantage in that we better understand the technology behind computers and that aloows us to tailor a system to our specifics. Lay people like my mother-in-law simply want to visit Best Buy and walk out the door with a working plug-n-play system that performs many automatic tasks for them so they can concentrate on web surfing and email, and maybe watch a DVD now and then. They don't install software other than what the system came bundled with... whereas we will fill up a big HDD with programs and click on CUSTOM INSTALL at that! We want our OS to boot up quick so we tweak things accordingly. My mother-in-law just wants it to boot to the desktop and isn't interested in the extra few seconds or minutes that pass by.

2. As for Dell CRT monitors, Phillips was their maker for a number of years as well as their top model by Sony under Trinitron license. I do not know who is making their private labeled LCD panels. Samsung and Sharp are the largest suppliers of LCD panels to the industry. I own a Samsung w/ 2ms GTG response. If you go the route of an LCD monitor just make sure it's a Sharp or Samsung at the root of it, despite the private label.

3. Dittos on tomshardware.com --- a very good site indeed.

4. Is all that use of the vernacular allowed here? I thought the vocabulary needs to remain reasonably appropriate and civil??

1. True, but my statement still old water. And to some extent what you've said also supports my statement and visa versa.

The thing is you can still buy a very good make of mobo, graphics card or whatever, and get a good deal on it.
You must just not think of buying top of the line stuff, that's where you get ripped of. Sort of pick your pick in the middle, and get the good stuff. If you look at the benches, the stuff in the middle is really not that much slower than the top stuff either.
So you're just being ripped off.

Happy computing to everyone.

Interesting spin on this thread.
I've just been for a job interview at a big IT company supporting a big mining group, apparently worldwide (both), now this place is rather remote, in what we call the bosveld.
Far from civilisation.
The whole mining group used to use Dell computers, servers, the works for years now, and for some reason decided to switch to some other brand (the one renowned for making printers).
Apparently they are getting a lot more breakdowns with the new ones, and their service sucks compared to Dell.
He stated any problem reported with Dell has seen action taken the next day, whereas the new provider are taking days even weeks.

Maybe that is only the case in SA, and that is why the group switched to another brand, because elsewhere in the world they suck (I would presume).
But still interesting.
He also said that Dell machines/servers date from 2003, a bit long in the tooth I suppose, but going strong.
Maybe the people after all makes the brand.

Dell Corporate vs. Dell Home are two entirely different things.

speakerguy79 said:

Dell Corporate vs. Dell Home are two entirely different things.

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God, I hope so 'cause I happened to stop by a new EE lab at work today and I discovered a 15 foot long wall of Dell servers about to be installed. BTW, I just learned that the EE labs use only HP desktops and the PSU are failing (about a dozen so far) and the LCD monitors have known issues with the PSU failing in them as well. About 60 failures thus far. Perhaps in the eyes of HP 60+ failed monitors is a drop in their bucket of total numbers of monitors produced, but to me its a significant number out of 200 purchased!!

Dell Corporate phone support is based in the US. That alone should tell you something