Evil Storm This Way Comes

[Inquisitive]

The devastation is just enormous. I wish all the best to those that have lost either family or material things. I guess the most important thing is if you made it intact with all your family. The material things may or may not be replaced slowly.

Precious personal memories like photos that are destroyed are sometimes never found or ruined beyond recognition.

The most important thing is knowing your all okay.

 

[Reloadron]

Hi MrAl,

Do you guys have natural gas where you are? That would be sweet.

Ron

 

[MrAl]

Hi there Ron,


Yes, ha ha, but the heat requires a 120vac 85 watt pump to run so the heat still doesnt work without electric, and that's the thing that was the worst this time around.

If i could get the pump running it would help a lot. It makes me wonder if there is a generator out there that runs on natural gas ie hooked right into the gas line all year round ready for use during a power outage.

We had hot water

Ideas welcome.

 

[jpanhalt]

Several interesting hits from search: convert gasoline to natural gas generator

https://www.propane-generators.com/

I haven't read about it very much, but one issue that needs to be addressed in going from gasoline to propane or natural gas is lubrication. I don't recall whether it is cylinder wall or valves that is more affected, but I believe that is readily solved.

Good luck.

John

 

[MrAl]

Hi,

Oh yes very interesting. I'll have to look into this more i guess. Right now i dont even have a generator but i might have to get one. Biggest generator i have right now is a hand crank flashlight (chuckle) which i actually like (upgraded it several times for LED and Li-ion cell and voltage charge regulator, etc.).

I also considered an inverter, car battery, charging via the car outside, either toting the battery or running charge wires...either of which is a pain.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

It makes me wonder if there is a generator out there that runs on natural gas/propane ie hooked right into the gas line all year round ready for use during a power outage.

Very typical: https://www.generatorjoe.net/subcat.asp?0=247

Your favorite Home Depot sells Generac.

Then you have to decide on an automatic or manual transfer switch. They can be set and forget. Power goes out. ATS waits a bit. Generator starts. Stabilizes. Transfers power. and back out when the utility is restored. Generator testing is also scheduled. If no oil, it won't start. Crankcase heaters. Weatherization options for near the sea.

ASCO is a transfer switch manufacturer, but each generator manufacturer makes their own.

In another case (automatic), just the backed up loads gets a special panel just for the backed up loads. Air conditioners can be locked out.

In a third case (Manual) a panel is wired to the each of the backed up breakers. There is basically a DPDT type switches on that panel to transfer individual loads to the generator.

In a fourth case (Pretty easy). A panel is modified by a company to create a mechanically interlocking set of breakers. These two breakers cannot be on at the same time. One backfeeds the panel from the generator.

For portable generators there is a outdoor power input plug added.

The big disadvantage of portable units is the fuel. Multi-fuel generators do exist.

 

[Inquisitive]

They do make conversion kits for propane or natural gas fired generators.

 

[jpanhalt]

Even better than a natural gas or propane run generator, for those of us with access to unlimited wood, would be an external combustion power plant. Steam is prohibitively costly, apparently because of all the safety stuff. Stirling and similar are still just dreams. The hot air engine group (Yahoo) keeps bringing up tantalizing promises, but so far as I know, no one has a workable 2 to 5 HP unit for emergency use.

John

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Ya MrAl,

OK, we also have natural gas and the furnace is natural gas forced air. One thing we have never lost is natural gas, The below generator is what I added several years ago. The picture was taken before the yard was fully fenced.

**broken link removed**

The unit was a good deal as I bought it off the floor at my local Lowes right when the newer models were coming out. Note the squared corners, the new units have rounded corners. This is what the new units look like in a NG (Natural Gas) 18 KW unit. So since the unit was sitting there new on the floor they sold it to me back then for about $3,000 which is what I would have paid for a 12 KW unit I was thinking about ordering.

Prior to all of this I had a 4 KW portable unit which is now sitting in the shed. That unit was gasoline powered. That unit easily powered the house as to essentials including the furnace, freezer and refrigerator without a problem.

They do make units like this little 8KW unit that runs on natural gas.


The beauty of these little creatures is no worry about keeping a fresh emergency supply of gasoline around. They will also run on LPG (Propane) with the simple flip of a valve on the carburetor. Power goes out and within 10 seconds the things starts, comes up to speed, and automatically does a full transfer. They also start and run once a week automatically doing an exercise routine. They are also very quiet running.

While not quite cheap they bring peace of mind. I purchased ours when Kathy's mom was bed ridden and we were providing home health care. The more life support machines I saw come into this house the more I worried about a power failure. Hell, we lose power now and I invite the neighbors over for drinks and a movie.

Ron

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,


Ron:
Wow nice setup there. One good thing here is that i dont need that much power, maybe 1000 watts or less, but yes it has to be self contained and run on natural gas, but also we are not allowed to modify the gas lines ourselves which means someone has to be licensed to do it. That's a pain too.
But geeze even 500 watts would do it. The pump is only about 85 watts.
All the units i see are like 8KW and higher.

KeepIt:
Anything smaller than that around? Like 1000 watts or less?

 

[Mr RB]

I bought a new fridge, it only uses about 130W, which surprised me for a medium sized fridge/freezer. Really in an emergency all you need is a fridge/freezer and some CFL lighting, which should not use much. Likewise for a small TV/radio.

Then again, some people are silly and live in places where it snows!! Bring on some more global warming, that will fix the snow problem.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Motors because of their inductance takes much more power to start. Without looking at the nameplate 1.5 X. A generator is rated in VA, not Watts.

A fridge is typically 1/3 HP. I guess you have hot water system? Add at least a light, possibly a TV (although that might be out too if cable), a portable radio, the computer and any distribution amps/routers. You don't have to include the air conditioner. 120/240 or 120 only?

I do believe there exists a "portable" gas connection that can be installed outside usually used for outside cooking.

On this page there is a 6 KW multi-fuel unit. **broken link removed**

Here **broken link removed** is a typical transfer switch for a few loads. **broken link removed**

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,


Thanks for the links, very interesting for sure.
What i was looking for i guess was something under $500 USD. Maybe that's not possible, but that would be a nice target price i think.
I talked to someone else today too and they said a generator for them would just be too much trouble. The other thing is the noise. How loud will a small one be, i figure like a chain saw or small lawn mower, or do they have better mufflers/sound damping these days or do you have to build your own 'shed'?

The sleeping bag works nice BTW. Didnt cost much either and it's pretty warm. This one is rated for about 20 degrees F but they have better ones that go down to 0 degrees F and lower

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

There is a guy that sells shave ice around here and runs a Honda EU3000 **broken link removed** sitting in the back of the pick-up. You can barely hear it.

It does have an idel control mode, so when the equipment doesn't need power it goes super quiet. They are much quieter than say a leaf blower or a lawn mower.

You need at least $500 for the ease of plugging it in.

I rented a generator once for about 3 or 4 days. A transformer blew in the back yard. Connecting/alternating an extension cord to 2 fridges and one freezer wasn't fun. Actually it was a fridge and freezer in one location and a fridge in another. At the time I only had one 100' and one 50' extension cord. Now I have two 100' ones plus a couple of 25' ones.

I have the parts to make up a cable to run a 12 V bilge pump from the car if needed. Let's hope I don't need the bilge pump where it is now, a window well. With Sandy I didn't need it. The sump pump did go on a few times. I can make the connections even with power out because I have a butane soldering iron. It would be a lot easier if I had an inverter that could run a 1/3 HP motor or so. Those measures only keep the water out, not the food safe.

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Al,

Yes, it gets hard to find small units that run on natural gas and have electric start. What you are seeing in the 7 to 8 KW range seem as small as they get. My small pull start Briggs & Stratton at 4 KW would run the whole house sans obviously running the electric dryer. There are some pretty nice low power Honda made units in the 2 KW ranges I have seen. However, sans modifications all the nice smaller units seem to run on gasoline.

Also, per KISS those little Honda and similar units are lightweight and quiet. They power up on demand.

Following a very warm winter last year and little snow/ice I wonder what is in store for us this year?

Ron

 

[tcmtech]

To be honest once you drop below the 2 KW range and only need to keep a few lower powered criticle items and devices going a big inverter powered off one or two deep cycle batteries that can be recharged off any of your vehicles is probably going to be the simpler set up.

You would be surprized at how many small lower powered devices can run off of modified sine wave power sources with no real trouble.

 

[alec_t]

....but running time could be a problem with the inverter approach. If you actually need 1kW or so continuously for, say, a week then massive battery capacity would be needed.

 

[tcmtech]

Well that changes things. If you have a continuous base load over a few hundered watts or more then you are also running a lot more than bare minimal devices and that justifies the going with the bigger generator again.

For me in theory I can get by with about 2000 watts peak running for around 10 - 15 minutes out of every hour with a base load well below 200 watts average which if needed I can sustain off of a single 100 Ah 12 volt battery getting topped off 2 - 3 times a day by oneof my vehicles.

But for me whats the point going bare minimums when I already have a generator that can keep me at 95% normal operations except for running my 15 HP air compressor or the big welder or plasma cutter.

 

[jpanhalt]

Here's a question regarding code.

The idea of a small generator converted to propane/methane is quite appealing to me. The Honda is quiet, and for convenience, I would like to run it inside with a manual switch for connection to the mains.

In terms of venting, I am vaguely aware of some rules that make sense. For example, you cannot just tap a gas water heater into the furnace vent (Ohio) because of the chance flue gases could get back into the area. However, both a water heater and furnace can vent separately to a single chimney, if the draft is adequate.

Do any of you have knowledge of what restrictions might exist for venting an auxiliary generator into the same chimney as used for the furnace?

John

 

[MrAl]

Hello again,

Ron:
Yes i was looking at lower end models as to the cost and also the noise output has to be low because this is a residential area. Maybe would be better off going with some deep cycle batteries and inverter. The only problem with that is i hate to have to keep charging them.
The warmer weather is nice sometimes but from what i understand that's why we are getting the bigger storms now both here on the east coast and also in the Gulf area. These storms are very nasty.

Also:
And a 15AHr battery is going to take about 7 hours to charge unless i charge it very fast, faster than recommended. I wonder how this would affect the cycle life.