EXOSKELETON

[gophert]

Check out how much trouble the military is having with exoskeletons.

I'm not sure some parts of that story are believable. Like the part where they stored it in the restroom. Do you know how small a military barracks restroom is? No way!

 

[tech master 117]

I have thought of a way,in biology we did read that whenever our muscles start to contract or expand there is slight change in the electrical conductivity of muscles say muscle 1 conductivity increases by X while expanding and by Y while contracting now we can put micro electrodes connected to amplifying circuits on the hamsters skin and enter the conductivity feeds into a micro controller which will be programmed for that purpose thus control the output of the exoskeleton.I know that this is in a way looks fictional but why can't we just try it there is no harm in that.

 

[tech master 117]

is this the exoskeleton it looks like a transformer toy to me

 

[DerStrom8]

I have thought of a way,in biology we did read that whenever our muscles start to contract or expand there is slight change in the electrical conductivity of muscles say muscle 1 conductivity increases by X while expanding and by Y while contracting now we can put micro electrodes connected to amplifying circuits on the hamsters skin and enter the conductivity feeds into a micro controller which will be programmed for that purpose thus control the output of the exoskeleton.I know that this is in a way looks fictional but why can't we just try it there is no harm in that.

That is something that is currently done with human prosthetics, but that is much different from a hamster. 1) The motors would need to be incredibly tiny, too tiny to produce enough torque to move the limb. 2) The electrodes would need to be placed perfectly, which would be practically impossible to do with a hamster. 3) You would need a relatively large power supply, and one like what would be needed to power the "exoskeleton" would be too large for the hamster to carry practically. 4) It would still be difficult to control, even if the hamster somehow knew how to "control" it. If the motors are on for a fraction of a second too long, it'll snap his leg and cause even more harm.

It is just VERY impractical, if not impossible, and is not financially or scientifically viable.

 

[tech master 117]

That is something that is currently done with human prosthetics, but that is much different from a hamster. 1) The motors would need to be incredibly tiny, too tiny to produce enough torque to move the limb. 2) The electrodes would need to be placed perfectly, which would be practically impossible to do with a hamster. 3) You would need a relatively large power supply, and one like what would be needed to power the "exoskeleton" would be too large for the hamster to carry practically. 4) It would still be difficult to control, even if the hamster somehow knew how to "control" it. If the motors are on for a fraction of a second too long, it'll snap his leg and cause even more harm.

It is just VERY impractical, if not impossible, and is not financially or scientifically viable.

Instead of motors we can use synthetic piezoelectric plastic or nanophase changers which are quite cheap and produce good torque with low power and leave the safety part to me(use of safety movement locks).Why does it seem that you are just on a quarrel battle with me.If I posted something wrong or offensive then pardon me.

 

[DerStrom8]

Instead of motors we can use synthetic piezoelectric plastic or nanophase changers which are quite cheap and produce good torque with low power and leave the safety part to me(use of safety movement locks).Why does it seem that you are just on a quarrel battle with me.If I posted something wrong or offensive then pardon me.

You asked us if something was possible or practical. We said no it was not. And now all you seem to be doing is arguing. Why bother asking for advice in the first place if you're just going to ignore it?

If you really think it's possible, then do it. If you're so sure of yourself, then why bother coming here at all?

 

[cowboybob]

I'm reminded of the old adage,"Talk is cheap".

I know it's fun to throw out ideas and watch'em bounce around but...

I know I am not Bill Gates but I do have some scientific knowledge and financial sense that is why I posted that thread and I don't think everyone gave a negative reaction and we can just try it without harm and try to make it cheap I am just trying to do something which rarely any individual tried but I don't think that a cybernetic arm for a hamster would cost me a fortune.

TMCXVII, it's a viable idea. No one's refuting that. Nor are they unwilling to help.

It's more a case of experience talking. If you've looked at any of the current human exoskeleton efforts (and some heavy hitters, like DARPA, are working on them) you would surely appreciate their complexity. Reducing the scale actually increases the complexity, especially in component selection.

In this case, I think you'd get far better responses by posting what you've accomplished thus far (i.e., like making the splint for the hamster, as step one), rather than continuing to post highly technical questions that are well past step one.

Many times we've seen posts that start something like this: "I've got this thimble. I think an SDR is a cool idea. Can someone provide to me a parts list, schematic and the code that will fit into it?". Think about it. Is it viable? Sure. Is it doable? Well now, there's the rub. How would you respond?

 

[DerStrom8]

TMCXVII, it's a viable idea. No one's refuting that.

Just to be clear, it may be a viable idea but not a viable project, especially with the experience level of the OP and the limited technology available. So depending on what you mean by "it's a viable idea", I would have to refute it. It is not viable to pursue it. It will be too complex and expensive, and there may not even be parts in existence that will work for it.

 

[strantor]

I have thought of a way,in biology we did read that whenever our muscles start to contract or expand there is slight change in the electrical conductivity of muscles say muscle 1 conductivity increases by X while expanding and by Y while contracting now we can put micro electrodes connected to amplifying circuits on the hamsters skin and enter the conductivity feeds into a micro controller which will be programmed for that purpose thus control the output of the exoskeleton.I know that this is in a way looks fictional but why can't we just try it there is no harm in that.

OK so you won't be dissuaded. Sounds good. Let start talking real about this and see how far down the rabbit hole you go before come back out with your tail tucked.
These should get you started:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12750
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12805
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13027
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13723
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11900
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/8782
https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__63415__ZIPPY_Compact_4500mAh_3s_40c_Lipo_Pack.html

The above combined is several hundred USD for an incomplete, hobby level biomedical interface kit for a human. The performance of these hobby products isn't going to be amazing, not even guaranteed to work at all on a human, but you will need to do your research and purchase and test them out on yourself first. if they do work on you, you are going to need to hack every one of these expensive devices and scale it down by a factor of .0003. You'll probably need to contract an R&D team of experienced biomedical engineers to assist you with this.

I have used some the devices linked to. A couple of years ago I attempted to build a prosthetic arm for my father who is an amputee. I abandoned the project, not because I hit a technological wall, but because my father seemed to lose interest. I think having been without his arm for >30yrs he is already accustomed to not having it. And having me poke and prod and probe him with test gear brought back bad memories from the '80s when myoelctric prosthetics were in infancy; he was the test subject of many experiments in prothetic design.

I spent thousands of USD in tools and components for that project. I bought a 3D printer to make the prosthetic parts, and a myriad of sensors (those linked above, and more). I upgraded my oscilloscope and assembled several circuits for amplifying the human body's electrical signals. I spent countless hours poring over academic references on muscle impulse signals, only to find that everything I read was pointless because the signals from damaged muscles are deformed, erratic, random, and do not in any way resemble healthy signals.

I have just enough experience in this area to tell you that what you want to do, is not easy. It will take years of research into the unknown physiology of hamsters to develop a solution, by which time the hamster's great grandchildren will be dead.

 

[cowboybob]

...depending on what you mean by "it's a viable idea"...

Exactly what I wrote, Matt.

Viable, as in "doable" (an informal definition of viable), but that doesn't mean that it's worth the time and money doing it.

 

[DerStrom8]

Exactly what I wrote, Matt.

Viable, as in "doable" (an informal definition of viable), but that doesn't mean that it's worth the time and money doing it.

Well my point is that with existing technology, it may not even be doable. The motors would need to be incredibly tiny, and will likely be unable to supply enough torque to move the leg. I don't think such motors (or other electromechanical devices capable of doign this) exist.

 

[cowboybob]

Well, what a spoil-sport you are today, Matt. Bless your heart !

I am compelled to refer you to your signature . (Bwahaha...)

 

[strantor]

Exactly what I wrote, Matt.

Viable, as in "doable" (an informal definition of viable), but that doesn't mean that it's worth the time and money doing it.

I don't think it is even doable. By an stretch of imagination.

Prosthetic devices are very much customized devices. No two alike. They must be built for the injured party, which takes time. For humans most of the work is already known an experienced firm can produce the Prosthetic within weeks or even days possibly. But that is just the beginning. There is a long process to refine the Prosthetic both on the design side and on the patient's side. These don't just work "out of the box". The patient must learn how to operate the devices, which can be very challenging. The signals don't always translate. What used to be "extend index finger" might be different than it used to; now it might be "twitch index finger" or "close index finger" or "nothing". You have to train yourself for the new operation of your droid limb. You have to reconfigure all your cranial feedback loops, which a pretty abstract task. And the designer might have to modify the Prosthetic several times as a profile of the patient's signals develops. Much physical therapy and going back to square one before the patient is "good to go".

This can take a really long time. The life span of a hamster is about 2.5yrs max. Assuming it isn't a newborn, that clock has already been ticking a while. This time frame would be a challenge for a human. Considering it's a hamster, I think it's squarely outside the realm of possibility. There is so much research to do (discovering the physiology of hamsters, translation of human Prosthetic designs and adaptation to hamster scale) that you wouldn't even get around to designing the actual Prosthetic before the hamster was dead twice over.

 

[cowboybob]

I don't think it is even doable. By an stretch of imagination. ...

Be honest now, strantor. You've never done something ridiculous, despite all the evidence of the naysayers?

(Like, for instance, my getting involved in this thread . )

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I read Popular Science and Popular Mechanics and using the brain (implants) to control a prosthetic is real now.

 

[DerStrom8]

Be honest now, strantor. You've never done something ridiculous, despite all the evidence of the naysayers?

(Like, for instance, my getting involved in this thread . )

strantor and I are simply trying to be realistic. Even if it is scientifically possible, and the technology exists, the amount of time and money that would need to go into it just makes it incredibly impractical. Plus, strantor made a point I meant to a while ago. The user needs to learn how to use the prosthetic. I don't think a hamster is mentally capable of that.

I read Popular Science and Popular Mechanics and using the brain (implants) to control a prosthetic is real now.

It's been real for quite some time, but if you read the rest of the thread you'll see that we're referring to a hamster, and that it just won't be practical. Humans and hamsters are very different. The time needed just to calibrate the darned thing would be longer than the hamster's complete lifespan!

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I know it's a hamster. I recently talked to a recent amputee at our church when he came to visit and even though he has no toes on one foot, he can still "wiggle them" or his brain thinks he still is.

You can't tell hammy to move his leg so you can "adjust" the software.

But, then there might be a force measurement one could do.

 

[shortbus=]

What do you guys have against hamsters? What if he crippled a guinea pig and tried it?

 

[strantor]

I know it's a hamster. I recently talked to a recent amputee at our church when he came to visit and even though he has no toes on one foot, he can still "wiggle them" or his brain thinks he still is.

You can't tell hammy to move his leg so you can "adjust" the software.

But, then there might be a force measurement one could do.

Yeah he can "wiggle" his toes, so he thinks. It's more of a feeling than a fact. If tomorrow he woke up with toes again, and he "wiggled" them the same way he thinks he's doing right now, They probably wouldn't be doing what he thinks he's telling them to do. It's kind of like when someone goes deaf, their voice starts to change because they can't hear their own voice. They think they're making the right sounds, but with no feedback (and the longer you've been without the feedback) the more "off" you get.

Now, if your friend were to get some prosthetic toes controlled by a brain chip, they would be even more "off" than had they spontaneously regenerated. Because you got the natural "offness" multiplied by the difference between how real toes work and prosthetic toes work.

In order to make your friend's toes work properly, he would have to sit down with the prosthetic designer for testing. Designer says "OK, now lift your big toe" - big toe does not lift. Designer says "OK, try again" - designer monitors signals, looks for what's happening, and where, when his brain thinks it's lifting the big toe, and modifies the device to respond to that change.

Now How the heck are you going to do that with a hamster? You can't tell him what to do and You won't know how to make the IronMan suit respond to the hamster's desires because he can't tell you what his desires are. Unless you have a database of collected hamster brainwaves correlated to a database of hamster bodily movements to reference, you'll be clueless. What happens when the hamster tries to lift his arm at the same time the much more powerful suit thinks the hamster is trying to lower his arm? I can see a few dozen hamsters being ripped apart by their own IronHamster suits before you get even one action right.

 

[JimB]

I can see a few dozen hamsters being ripped apart by their own IronHamster suits before you get even one action right.

We have a winner!
I now have this mental image of an electronic workshop strewn with blood, fur and the shattered bodies of several small animals.
Oh the humanity!

JimB