Flyover Disaster

[DerStrom8]

Actually the overpass was all okay before repairs in night a day before where some cantilever segments were not welded properly which led to the collapse.The fact is not about technical expertise....less qualified local workers were used and low grade materials.

Any worker with any sense should have been able to tell that the materials were poorly selected and improperly welded, and should have known that it posed a serious risk. Unfortunately this lack of sense seems to be what is disturbing the nature of India, in particular. It affects politics, road crews, "engineers", designers, etc. It probably comes from poor schooling (which I have found to be a serious issue in India, based on what I see online).

 

[bountyhunter]

I wasn't saying that they designed it knowing they were building in a failure mode, my point was that they soon knew there was a terrible problem and did not fix it. Reminds me a lot of the new San Fran bridge under construction with it's corroding main bolts that nobody will take ownership of..... my point is it's funny how nobody will acknowledge a serious problem until the thing collapses and falls into the water.

 

[JoeJester]

If it is the bridge they showed us in engineering school (that collapsed during the winds) the designers were flaming idiots who ignored warnings that it was unsafe. The reason there was a nice movie of the bridge collapsing was that some people KNEW it would collapse and they went out there with a camera on days where high winds were predicted to get film of what they predicted would happen. The designers chose to ignore information they did not want to hear..... after working as an engineer for 32 years, all I can say is: Been there, seen that.

Was there any documentation demonstrating that someone warned the designers?

The United States and it's regulatory authority is reactionary. Look at all the steamboat disasters before there was an effective Steamboat inspection service under the Department of Treasury. Shall we classify all those who built steam engines before 1871 as idiots when their boiler causes a death?

One should not use generational knowledge increases to call previous generations idiots, flaming or otherwise. Remember, Edison was famous for demonstrating that AC kills. Did that prevent every accident? I doubt it.

On edit:

Everything I've seen so far has been post construction criticism of the bridge. The designer had been a consultant on other spans, and was well respected.

from https://www.engineering.com/Library/ArticlesPage/tabid/85/ArticleID/171/Tacoma-Bridge.aspx

When the bridge began heaving violently, the authorities notified Professor F. B. Farquharson of the University of Washington. Professor Farquharson had conducted numerous tests on a simulated model of the bridge and had assured everyone of its stability. The professor was the last man on the bridge. Even when the font was tilting more than twenty-eight feet up and down, he was making scientific observations with little or no anticipation of the imminent collapse of the bridge. When the motion increased in violence, he made his way to safety by scientifically following the yellow line in the middle of the roadway. The professor was one of the most surprised men when the font crashed into the water.

Then there is this, which was never attributed in the article I read as being pre-construction ...

Engineers who reviewed the design of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge voiced concern that the innovations extended beyond previous practice and that it was not safe (Delatte 2009, 27).

Hindsight, in all endeavors, is 20-20.

 

[bountyhunter]

Was there any documentation demonstrating that someone warned the designers?

You missed my point altogether. A bridge or any major project doesn't have "a designer", it's developed by multiple people who are under the authority of the people who manage the project which would be the state or county where the bridge was built. I never said they were warned BEFORE it was finished (although they might have been) I doubt it because they would not have asked..... which is to say, speaking from 32 years experience as an engineer, everybody involved with the design would have been yes men nodding their heads a lot and anybody pointing out potential problems would have been transferred or fired.

My point is that after it was built and it shook like a shanty hit by an earthquake, it was abundantly clear there was a major problem and there were MANY people who should have stepped up and done something about it.

Look what I just wrote... a politician admitting a problem and fixing it? Just joking, but the point is the bridge did not work quietly and well and then fail without warning: it gave PLENTY of warning and nobody took ownership and fixed it.

"The United States and it's regulatory authority is reactionary."

Yep, that's why they call the FAA the "tombstone Agency". But seriously: when you have a giant bridge spinning and twisting like a belly dancer every time the wind blows, how much proof do they need?

Hindsight, in all endeavors, is 20-20.

Giving them a free pass is why they don't do anything. It didn't take hindsight to see what was coming, in fact Stevie Wonder could have seen it.

 

[bountyhunter]

One should not use generational knowledge increases to call previous generations idiots, flaming or otherwise.

I call them idiots because they built (possibly unknowingly) a dangerous bridge and then played "see no evil" when any fool could see it needed to be fixed.

Remember, Edison was famous for demonstrating that AC kills. Did that prevent every accident? I doubt it.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, but FYI: Edison's harping about the lethality of AC was basically because he was pushing DC for power generation (which is completely non feasible for power generation) and that Edison had a feud with Nikola Tesla. Edison was obsessed with discrediting AC power:

"Edison’s least favorite of Tesla’s “impractical” ideas was the concept of using alternating current (AC) technology to bring electricity to the people. Edison insisted that his own direct current (DC) system was superior, in that it maintained a lower voltage from power station to consumer, and was, therefore, safer. But AC technology, which allows the flow of energy to periodically change direction, is more practical for transmitting massive quantities of energy, as is required by a large city, or hub of industry, say. At the time, DC technology only allowed for a power grid with a one-mile radius from the power source. The conflict between the two methods and their masters came to be known as the War of Currents."

The point is that if some idiot had built an AC generator that was shooting HV sparks and killing people, I suspect there might have been somebody who would have said:

"Hmmm...... maybe we need to fix that....."

You can't look at that bridge video and claim it was an unforseeable accident.

 

[MikeMl]

Seems like that the main problem with that bridge is that they didn't hire bountyhunter to design it...

 

[large_ghostman]

The corruption comment by the OP was interesting, made me think a bit about what I actually KNOW about India. Not a huge amount it has to be said, I have never been there but I know My mum and dad went years ago, apart from call centers and the colonial history we are taught at school the only other thing I know about is the Tajh Mahal (sp?).

Now this whatever way you cut it is an engineering feat of incredible beauty, any nation would have been proud to build it. But then it got me thinking, a prince built it and I bet no expense spared, I also wonder how diligent you would be as a project manager etc with someone like that for a boss . So maybe the corruption thing has more merit than a shortage of skills. Poor dosnt always mean incapable or untrained. BONCUK once posted about a guy in Thailand he knew, the guy apparently welded up a propshaft under a car totally true and precise by hand!! I guess many years of practice.

Watched the UK sub program the other night and the warning about lack of engineering skill now creeping into UK heavy industry because of lack of investment bringing up new engineers

 

[tech master 117]

Any worker with any sense should have been able to tell that the materials were poorly selected and improperly welded, and should have known that it posed a serious risk. Unfortunately this lack of sense seems to be what is disturbing the nature of India, in particular. It affects politics, road crews, "engineers", designers, etc. It probably comes from poor schooling (which I have found to be a serious issue in India, based on what I see online).

actually they might have known that the materials were substandard but in here no one takes responsibility for something they just do their work in some way or sometimes workers even try to skip work and just take wages back home even the firm owner who is in custody says he doesn't know anything.

 

[DerStrom8]

actually they might have known that the materials were substandard but in here no one takes responsibility for something they just do their work in some way or sometimes workers even try to skip work and just take wages back home even the firm owner who is in custody says he doesn't know anything.

That is exactly my point. Anyone with proper education and common sense would know to speak up about issues like this BEFORE the bridge collapses.

 

[large_ghostman]

That is exactly my point. Anyone with proper education and common sense would know to speak up about issues like this BEFORE the bridge collapses.

Read Flybacks posts, it is becoming common for people (UK view point) to keep there mouth shut at work, jobs are hard to get and life on the welfare system in the UK is no bed of pickles (is that right phrase?). My mum now gets some benefits as she has me and my sister at home and very low income, from experience she struggles to feed us some weeks which is why I come up with stuff to help out. I am getting great at growing veg . My Broad Beans are just coming up nicely .

I think it depends on the person, I wonder if my mum was an engineer what she would do. Would she keep her job by keeping her mouth shut or would she do the right thing and say something knowing it would affect he ability to feed her children.

The world used to seem black or white to me, it seems to get more grey every day. What would I do?
I would speak up but I am officially Gobby and if it was just me to worry about I wouldnt hesitate, interesting moral question though isnt it.

 

[bountyhunter]

The project does give a very good example of what plagues all engineering: decision authority is at the top held by one or two who know squat and the people who know everything have no authority.... and yes, to answer a previous post, better information was offered (and ignored for the sake of cost) with a disaster as the result:

"Washington State engineer Clark Eldridge produced a preliminary tried-and-true conventional suspension bridge design, and the Washington Toll Bridge Authority requested $11 million from the Federal Public Works Administration (PWA). Preliminary construction plans by the Washington Department of Highways had called for a set of 25-foot-deep (7.6 m) trusses to sit beneath the roadway and stiffen it.

However, according to Eldridge, "Eastern consulting engineers"—by which Eldridge meant Leon Moisseiff --petitioned the PWA and the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC) to build the bridge for less.//////Moisseiff argued for stiffening the bridge with a set of eight-foot-deep plate girders rather than the 25 feet (7.6 m)-deep trusses proposed by the Washington Toll Bridge Authority. Moisseiff's design won out, as the other proposal was considered to be too expensive.

The bridge was designed with two lanes, and it was just 39 feet (12 m) wide. This was quite narrow, especially in comparison with its length. The decision to use such shallow and narrow girders proved to be the original Tacoma Narrows Bridge's undoing. With such minimal girders, the deck of the bridge was insufficiently rigid and was easily moved about by winds; from the start, the bridge became infamous for its movement. This flexibility was experienced by the builders and workmen during construction, which led some of the workers to christen the bridge "Galloping Gertie". The nickname soon stuck, and even the public (when the toll-paid traffic started) felt these motions on the day that the bridge opened on July 1, 1940."

additional:


"Cause of the collapse
The bridge was solidly built, with girders of carbon steel anchored in huge blocks of concrete. Preceding designs typically had open lattice beam trusses underneath the roadbed. This bridge was the first of its type to employ plate girders (pairs of deep I-beams) to support the roadbed. With the earlier designs any wind would simply pass through the truss, but in the new design the wind would be diverted above and below the structure. Shortly after construction finished at the end of June it was discovered that the bridge would sway and buckle dangerously in relatively mild windy conditions that are common for the area."

 

[bountyhunter]

That is exactly my point. Anyone with proper education and common sense would know to speak up about issues like this BEFORE the bridge collapses.

The one law I learned working my 30 as an engineer:

Success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan.

After a disaster, all you would see is a thousand pointing fingers. Anybody who points out the problem has to take ownership of it. They can't run away fast enough.....

 

[bountyhunter]

Seems like that the main problem with that bridge is that they didn't hire bountyhunter to design it...

The main problem was they hired a very competent engineer to design it and then ignored everything he told them when some other guy came up and said he could do it for a dollar less. The other problem was that while building it, the problems became very obvious and nobody said or did anything to correct it. Government construction at it's finest.

Read post #31.

But to directly answer the comment: they did hire somebody like me (initially) but it made no difference. It never does. That's the whole point. When idiots have the final authority, you get idiotic decisions.

If they had gone with the original design, it would very likely still be standing.

 

[JoeJester]

Every government contract typically goes to the lowest bidder. Remember, the space program vehicles was low bidders as well.

Moisseiff's design won out, as the other proposal was considered to be too expensive.

In their report to the FWA adminstrator, in March of 1941, the Board of Engineers first conclusion was...

The Tacoma Narrows Bridge was well designed and built to resist safely all static forces , including wind, usually considered in the design of similar structures. Its failure resulted from excessive oscillations caused by wind action.

Of course, that could be a CYA move on their part.

There were Engineers involved with the project from all the entities associated with the funding of the project. There was silence from alot of engineers, probably due to the reputation of the design engineers.

Also in the report, I saw this tidbit ....

The field inspection of the work was made by the owners' engineers under the direction of Mr. Eldredge.

Does the name of the Engineer sound familiar?

There were more engineers involved with this project then you can shake a stick at ... and yet, it failed.

If you want to assign culpability, the list is large.

 

[large_ghostman]

Seems like that the main problem with that bridge is that they didn't hire bountyhunter to design it...

The penny just dropped! has taken me days to get the joke!, I read it with an A in instead of exactly what you wrote, I have been sat wondering for days what would the point of a bounty hunter be in bridge design.................. For a smart person I sure can do a great impression of some one stupid at times

 

[JimB]

For a smart person I sure can do a great impression of some one stupid at times

Beware young grasshopper, the reverse may also be true.

JimB

 

[JimB]

Watched the UK sub program the other night

I used to work at that place before I came North and entered the satanic world of the "Oil Industry".
That place has changed mightily since I was there, it needed to, it was stuck in the 19th century in many ways.

JimB

 

[large_ghostman]

I used to work at that place before I came North and entered the satanic world of the "Oil Industry".
That place has changed mightily since I was there, it needed to, it was stuck in the 19th century in many ways.

JimB

Tell me you didnt weld that sea gate .
Amazing place to see in action, at least they are now taking real apprentices on again.

 

[JimB]

Tell me you didnt weld that sea gate

No I didn't.
If I had attempted to weld ANYTHING, outside the confines of our departments workshop, there would have been one hell of a row with the Unions.

If you press me I will tell you the story about me and the one-armed electrician.

JimB

 

[large_ghostman]

No I didn't.
If I had attempted to weld ANYTHING, outside the confines of our departments workshop, there would have been one hell of a row with the Unions.

If you press me I will tell you the story about me and the one-armed electrician.

JimB

I know I shouldnt ask........................... but go on then