help Feedback winding for resonance with pll 4046

[sebosfato]

hehehe thats right, the frequency depends on the resonant cavity and the inductance, to have high rate of h2 being generated i can improve the resonant cavity surface are with special porous sponge materials and use higher frequency of course but i'm designing also a 500 khz unit too with very thick wire too but i have to figure out the resonant action first or i'm going to spent to much money with maybe no results. what i want is to prove the concept.

 

[Sceadwian]

Which still won't work.
All you're doing is creating an ultrasonic cleaner.

 

[Papabravo]

Looks like the advice to finish college was well made. I forsee that you will spend inordinate amounts of time and money pursuing this chimera, that could have been better spent doing something else -- like learning a trade!

Good luck my friend, and bon voyage

 

[blueroomelectronics]

What a novel use of the mythical beast Chimera. Nice.

 

[sebosfato]

**broken link removed** this is the patent where meyer got the idea for the pll design. Very clear steps sweep and lock.

 

[VisualEcho]

hobby

Why the guy who posted it went to such trouble to layout a non functioning design is beyond me.

That's simple. Because it's not really much trouble. For me. For you, I don't know, but it's easy for me.

You seem to get the idea that I did it in a day. I spent an hour or two here and there for a few months getting this far. You're also coming in at the middle, I'm not done yet. I'm not in a hurry to prove or disprove this idea. I think that if it were easy, everybody would be doing it all the time.

It's relatively cheap, all the software is free, and prototyping parts aren't particularly expensive. The tools can be pricey but are multi-purpose, so I don't mind those. Getting the circuit boards processed is expensive, especially if you haven't worked out a lot of complicated math, done extensive testing, or screw something up that can't be fixed with an X-acto knife and a hot lead pencil. I'm not formally trained in electrical engineering, so I eyeball the board printouts. When I'm good and ready, I'll have the prototype shop make the PCBs.

You sir, are completely capable of downloading this Creative Commons licensed work, importing the file, making modifications, and sending it off to be manufactured for yourself.

So far the frequency counter and the safety circuit boards are done. I learned a few things in doing each of them, I did make a few mistakes, but nothing serious. The PLL board is definitely more complex, and I'm not hurrying it's development. I'm also using conventional form parts, which make it easier for people to solder up a board with a cheap $4 Radio Shack soldering iron. I assure you, if I made this with surface mount components, it would be a lot smaller and I might have been done by now.

I label it as "THIS DOES NOT WORK" because there's a lot of design variables that can go one way or another right now. The PLL circuit works. So far, on the breadboard, it does exactly what it's designed to do. When I get more time to devote to winding the inductors, I'll find out just exactly which components I can hard-solder and which ones I need to be able to adjust. I can certainly add a dozen switches, another half-dozen potentiometers, additional oscilloscope taps... but I'd rather find a way to eliminate most of those so it's easier for silly people to get working. I'm tending to want to get something onto copper, so I'm likely to put taps everywhere and send it off to the prototype shop.

Maybe I'll fail. Okay, it's just a hobby. I may prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the techniques that I have tried DO NOT WORK. Hokey dokie, smokie, pass that cigarette and watch this balloon go BOOM. It's what I call fun.

My main problem at this point is whether or not I need additional control over the feedback amplifier to the PLL lock, which can only be answered with additional 'production grade' inductors. Okay, great, you ever tried hand winding a torroid? Man, it sucks! So do I need to design a stepper motor controller so I can make my own torroid winder? Manufacturers that sell commercial torroidal transformer winders are out of their minds pie in the sky expensive, building one from old sewing machine and bicycle parts seems more worthwhile. Then again, I'm going to try Metglas amorphous iron "C" cores, that should prove interesting, and I should be able to wind them just using a homemade jig on the end of a power drill.

I'm also entertaining an idea to overdrive the switching circuit using a real time linux kernel on Gumstix boards, which are also amenable to home designed expansion electronics. This would give exacting and precise control over the dwell of the transistor gate, using web pages instead of raw electronics. It's an interesting idea, but I'm pretty much convinced I'd need to quit my day job to really follow through on it. I'm not quite ready to retire yet.

So if you'd like to follow my progress at Stomping in Clown Shoes » Archive for Mad Scientist - Boo , I don't mind, but it occurs to me that you've got better things to do. Try overdosing on attention deficiency drugs and banging rocks together, great fun.

 

[Papabravo]

What a novel use of the mythical beast Chimera. Nice.

WARNING: shameless plug!
Should be worth some rep points -- eh!

 

[tcmtech]

If I am understanding you some what correctly you are actually in a way trying ot tap the latent energy differential that exists between the ionosphere and the earth itself.
I think the the natural resonance is around 7.4 -7.9 Hz.
However I do believe a very tall antenna and high powered resonate circuit does in fact make collecting tiny amounts of energy possible and no current laws of physics get bent or broken(Teslas work).
And this energy collection method CAN be repeated by anyone with basic electronics skills too!

Probably way off on what I am understanding that you are trying to do but I am willing to listen and learn.
You may have something or I may just get a good laugh too!
Either way I will play!

Nothing negative or sarcastic was intended or implied.

 

[sebosfato]

If I am understanding you some what correctly you are actually in a way trying ot tap the latent energy differential that exists between the ionosphere and the earth itself.
I think the the natural resonance is around 7.4 -7.9 Hz.
However I do believe a very tall antenna and high powered resonate circuit does in fact make collecting tiny amounts of energy possible and no current laws of physics get bent or broken(Teslas work).
And this energy collection method CAN be repeated by anyone with basic electronics skills too!

Probably way off on what I am understanding that you are trying to do but I am willing to listen and learn.
You may have something or I may just get a good laugh too!
Either way I will play!

Nothing negative or sarcastic was intended or implied.

Than you for your answe. Yes you understood is kind of that i'm trying to do.
Tesla said that you could transmit electricity thru the air right? but how to do it? Actually is impossible to get only a signal incoming and transform it into normal power delivery levels. So what i believe that tesla does second my theory he just transmitted a radio frequency and created a receiver that was able to get that signal and in a resonance circuit build up a high voltage witch would be used to tap this energy at every home.

I'm going to use high pressure, photodiodes and high voltage for maximize the energy collecting, to do it with little as possible energy from a car battery and see what happens.

Thanks

 

[sebosfato]

Oh I finished the college my english is little wrong because i have never studied it i learned by myself like, electronics, Physics, Chemistry, Guitar, Keyboards, drums, bass, Electronic music production... If you want to listen to my music this is the link: Psyplant on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads . Thank you all for the support the circuit is almost ready. As soon as possible i will post some photos and schematics.

 

[sebosfato]

Now i realised that the thread have being moved. Why ??? I was trying to discuss about electronics not alternative energy...

 

[tcmtech]

I have played around with the wireless power transmission and actually had very favorable results too.

One odd discovery of mine is with using a well tuned air core LC tank type circuit where one end of the inductor coils is electrically connected to a solid earth ground and the other end of the coil is attached to a simple spherical metal antenna that is mounted on a non conductive pole.

What I found by educated accident was by tuning the circuit by using the total length of the antenna wire, coil wire and, grounding wire to be at the exact quarter wave length of a local radio station and then adjusting the capacitor that is in parallel to the air core inductor coil to tune the LC tank to the same frequency I would get rapid static voltage build up on both the coil, antenna wire, and sphere.
That in turn could be pulled off the primary coil with at simple secondary coil that is spaced a cm or two away from the primary coil and positioned at the center of the primary coil.
This secondary coil was tuned to a lower harmonic of the primary coil as a second LC tank circuit and the energy it built up was pulled off through a set of high speed rectifiers and thusly a DC current was obtained.
That was further smoothed out with capacitors and then used as an actual low voltage DC power source.

Granted you might not be able to light more than a few LED's but still its honest energy collection from the local environment!
Am I backing up Tesla's findings or is he backing up mine?

Pick out your nearest and most powerful radio station and do some math relating to its wavelength.
A bit of careful coil and antennae building may just get you your energy collecting device yet!
There is no point in building a high voltage, high frequency power circuit if all you really need is to piggy back your collectors system on an all ready present one. Just use a local radio station as the system driver frequency.

I plan to redo this experiment some time and tune it to the local AM county music station. Their transmitter is high powered and not far from here. It should work as a great carrier wave source for an energy collection system. Maybe? More power colletable too. Maybe?

 

[sebosfato]

You see, if you drived it with no power and obtained few watts, can you imagine driving it with 500W. You confirmed my theory. Can you give us practical values, you used like coils diameter, length, wire diameter, inductance and sphere capacitance, tuning capacitor... ? How much static voltage did it created?

 

[tcmtech]

I didn't drive it with out power. I used a few tens of KW's from a radio transmitter and I was using a calculated frequency that closely matched a transmitter some 100+ miles away!

You have to pick out your base frequency first. Everything is determined off of that number.

1/4 of the wave length of the chosen frequency is the total length of wire from ground rod through the coil and to the sphere. The sphere diameter will determine the capacitance for the LC tank effect for the length of wire used.

Everything must be properly matched in order to fully tune into the desired frequency. Mine was admittedly sloppy and the overall tuning was poor but it still provided a favorable result.

Read up on radio frequency tuning circuits. All the formulas and information are there. You just need to put the numbers in.
I suggest checking out calculatoredge.com They have super calculator programs to make the numbers easier to work with.

All I am suggesting is to first use a local radio source for receiver tuning and design.

the static voltage build up would get high enough after a few seconds to make a strong static popping sound when I would run my hand over it.
I doubt my usable wattage was over half a watt.
It was a just for the curiosity experiment and at the time I did not actually fully understand what I was getting as a result. It was only after some follow up reading that I came to the conclusion that I had stumbled onto the radio station frequency.
I needed the coil and capacitor for other things and took it apart after about one good day of playing with it.

I am sure I could replicate it far more accurately now and build it in about a day. Since I now have a far better understanding of what was happening.

Just some things for you to think about.

 

[sebosfato]

Thank you for the answer. Can you give any information about the wire diameter and coil shape? It have influence on the Q of the circuit no. If you can make just the basic calculations and put them here for a common design would be great and i would be very happy to built it to have better understanding on tuned circuits and study about its practical effects.

Thanks again

 

[tcmtech]

I used 14 gauge enameled copper wire wound on a 4 inch PVC pipe.

Its been several years since I built it so I have no idea what the number of turns or any other factors were.

Sorry but I had to look them up and think about it! So can you!
I gave you the basic design concept and how it probably works theory behind it, now you have to fill in the rest!

There is no mystery materials or stuff like that.
Just copper wire, PVC pipe, a variable capacitor, and some aluminum foil for the primary side.
The secondary was more copper wire, a second variable capacitor, and some ultra fast diodes.

Its all just common Tesla coil formulas and some radio receiver formulas mixed together. And fair amount of applied math!

 

[sebosfato]

I'm going to read more about it. thak you a lot.


All information for the design of the opamps in the circuit found here **broken link removed**
**broken link removed**

Got to make some test and it's ready.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Now i realised that the thread have being moved. Why ??? I was trying to discuss about electronics not alternative energy...

It was moved because this is the more appropriate forum, with many other similar threads already.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Incidently, while we're discussing RF power - there's always been a story from Germany, a LONG time ago, about a multi-megawatt AM transmitter, where locals supposedly heated their greenhouses from it. By building large resonant circuits they were able to capture relatively large amount of the RF energy, and dump it into heating elements.

The story goes that it all came unstuck when the broadcaster noticed their transmission range had dropped considerably in a particular direction - where there was a valley full of greenhouses.

It's not 'free energy' you're stealing it, and presumably it is an offence?.

 

[sebosfato]

Hum not sure how were they doing that but it's ok. Thank you for your answer.

I made first tests with the circuit it is not finished yet but the counters act like a range selectors as he wrote on the drawings, its very high precision circuit I could even in 10khz range goes almost hz o hz and very stable frequency when lock led is on I need to finish the feedback and the resonant scanning circuit.

with 1 uf capacitor - 10k+200k R2 - 10K R1 -100k R3 -and 10k R4- Cf10n- it generated as predicted on my calculation 9 to 98 hz and with the first counter 7490 it went to 100 to 150 hz

With 10n capacitor it generated 998 to 10khz and with the counter from 10kz to 15kz.

I think the counters allow you to have a smaller bandwidth.