Help with Alternating 12 volt DC Headlight flasher "WIGWAG"

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gmcjetpilot

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Help with Alternating 12 volt DC Headlight flasher "WIGWAG"

The off the shelf versions for emergency vehicles are expensive and heavy, often in heavy potting. I want solid state.

Req:
12-14 volt DC
Two 60 watt (about 4.5 amp) halogen lights....
Flash about 50-100 fpm (flash per minute).... adjustable rate is good.

I am thinking of a 555 circuit may be? What transistor for switching? NPN, PNP, FET, MOSFET?
SCR's seems good but once on switching off is a problem.
 
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Flasher

Try this one. Any high power N channel MOSFET will be ok.

Adust R1 or C1 to change the rate.
 

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RonV.... perfect thank you, but one issue, I need to switch the POS and not the ground. Is there an easy way to flip that around? Thanks
 
Flasher-1

We can use some P Channel mos fets like this. Get some good for 20 30 amps so you don't need heatsinks.
 

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RonV.... you are the man. I owe you a beer. I will order some parts from Mouser or Digikey and prototype it, should work like a charm.

One more twist in the design! What about a switch to go from "WigWag" alternating to both lights Steady? I could do this with a toggle switch. One position wigwag, second switch position for steady (bypass the wigwag flasher). It would be more elegant to use the MOSFET's for steady as well. This would allow me to use a light duty toggle verses a BIG one that can handle 5 amps DC. What do you think?
 
Flasher

By far the easiest is to use the large switch. I was thinking while the timer doesn't take much current it is probably a good idea to turn it off when not in use. It will take a 3 pole switch because all the circuits have to be kept separate (3PST center off). I changed a couple of resistors that were to small for 1/4 watt at the same time and added a FET that will work with a small heat-sink. (Mouser 574102B00000G or similar)
Let me know if you want to pursue the small switch, I'm sure we can come up with something.
 

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I really OWE YOU and agree, external triple-pole, double-throw, center-off makes sense. The commercial headlight flash units (the one I am trying to avoid) have all solid state switching, going flash or steady. What do you think of this? See attachment. Not sure about the resistor size. I think I could re-wire the switch so it does not have to take the current.... just current for 555 + gate control.

PS: The FET is a FQP27P06? I'm not 100% on the astable wiring of the 555, but this looks like a simplifed wiring to force 50% duty (which is perfect). The 20K resistor should go to 47K to get about 1.5 Hz? Sound about right.
 

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I like the first one best. It just has high current only thru the master switch. Right you are on the FET. Right you are again on the 555 circuit. This is the simpelist one I've seen to ge 50% duty cycle. 47K is good.
 
Cant you just switch in resitors for the 555 to give you a 100% duty cycle?

Keep the original headlight switch, but drive the power to this circuit. Have a switch that changes the duty cycle of the 555 to 100%.

One issue you havn't dealt with is quiesient current. By doing it the above way it isn't an issue.
 
KeepItSimpleStupid
Keep the original headlight switch, but drive the power to this circuit.
I think the master switch may be a headlight switch, don't know for sure.
Have a switch that changes the duty cycle of the 555 to 100%.
The problem is that when one lamp is on the other is off.
 
OK, then diode "wire or" a constant drive to the lamp that's off.

What that means is the drive to the transistor or the mosfet can be "wire ored" with 2 diodes. One for the mosfet/Q1 and one for the constant on signal.

Or just OR, both signals and drive the mosfets. Might be easier. You don't need two power mosfets per bulb.

Which lamp is OFF?
 
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The MASTER is like the IGNITION SWITCH.... When the vehicle is powered power, "ignition on" or "auxiliary on", power is available to the "module".

You can't tie both lights together and make the WigWag work. They have to be isolated to make WigWag work, unless you have switching. The switching can be two transistors or a mechanical three poll switch.

Diodes and more wiring you are talking about is simpler than two transistors? Could you sketch that out.

Which lamp is OFF?
I appreciate your ideas but to explain how the circuit works, I am sure you know, for the record, 2N2222 is "inverting" the signal for the M2 MOSFET. The 555 sends out a positive square wave. This drives M1 OFF, drives Q1 ON, pulls M2 low, drives it ON (and lamp on). The 555 then goes low, reverses the process, drives M1 on, and Q1 and M2 are off. This goes back and forth with the square wave, 50% duty at about 1.5 Hz, each on or off 0.333 seconds, alternating. M3 and M4 just bypasses the WigWag... with solid state switching.

I could forget both M3 & M4 and go with a toggle switch, 3-Polls, double-throw with, On-Off-On. This would be a switch with at least a 15 amp rating. When in steady, it basically bypasses the WIG-WAG module all together. For steady it is just straight through the switch. A switch like this cost about $10-$14. They are wide, ugly and would not fit in with row of single and double poll switches. That is no big deal. I might go that way, to save the current going through the M3 and M$, FQP27P06's. I will get some MOSFET's and see how hot they get at 4.5 amps, no heatsink. I will likely have to have them on the some small heat-sink or greased to the aluminum case it will be in. If they run hot, too much inefficiency, I will skip the M3/M4 and go mechanical switching as plan B.

I like the sound of your idea and think it could be done.... draw it up! With that said I am looking at some RC "astable multivibrators", where both transistors are PNP type or P channel, no inverter needed. See link below. In this case, I might be able to do as you are thinking. Draw it up!

http://www.techlib.com/electronics/flipflopflash.htm

A lot of these RC transistor / SCR flip flops have some things to recommend them, but there are always trade offs. Most of these RC or SCR flip flop circuits have more discrete parts, capacitors, resistors, diodes, four transistors or darlingtons. Some of these flip flops are affected by supply voltage and/or load, changing rate of flash. A 555 timer is precision, not affected by system voltage or load, and they only cost $0.30 to $1.00 each. I also have the option of putting a POT in, to fine tune the flash rate. What the heck! MOSFET's are about $1.00 each. There is no big parts saving or cost savings by leaving off the two MOSFETS. In the trade I get to use a single switch of lower rating. So in "big parts" we are looking at $5.00, top.

There are 100's circuits to do this job and pick from. I admit I'm not sure of what is best. At this point what I have (BIG BIG thanks to RonV) will work. I have to pick one. I'm going to buy parts, prototype it, see what is what. I might try some of the RC circuits from the above link may be. Why not. If I find frustration in cherry picking parts to get flash rate or complicated switching to save two transistors, I will have my answer. I am not sure I can implement simple base or gate switching to do double duty (steady/flash) with the RC circuits. It might take a multi-poll, multi-throw switch. As it is now, I only need a double-poll double-throw switch of modest current rating. Just to match other switches I will use a bigger one verses a mini toggle, although I could with the transistor switching.

If you have a solid idea, could you draw it out, I'd appreciate it. If it's better, less parts, less cost and more efficient cool! I like the idea of doing the same with less parts. The 555 is cheating, but gosh darn it what a great IC. I have made PWM dimmers with them, awesome. They are cheap and flexible. There are no doubt many good ideas... love to hear your idea, but this design can't use your idea directly, with-out being as complex or even more so.
 
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If you put a diode in series with the output of the 555, the circuit would still work, right? cathode toward 555. Now take another diode and tie the anodes together. Possibly add a resistor. I don'thave the circuit in front of me. So that when 12V is applied to the cathode, the light turns ON, irrerespective of the state of the timer.

Find the same point for the other bulb (positive turns it on) and do the same thing. Connect the cathodes (+ resistor(s)?), tie to +12 and both lamps should be on irrerespective of the timer state.

I might be able to manually draw in the components if you still dont understand. Let me know.
 
I might be able to manually draw in the components if you still dont understand. Let me know.
You are right I don't understand you KISS. Draw it out my friend, attach it. If you have an idea that is better, I am all for it. You can use any free program to sketch. Save it as a jpg. Attach it with the "Go Advanced" feature in this forum (which is a nice deal). You can down load my sketch in the previous post. Should take you minute to sketch in your version. I can't guess at what you are saying. If you are sure this is better, show me.

BTW how old are you, what is your electronics, education, background interest? Just curious. I have to repeat, to WIG-WAG two lights, they have to be isolated. Right? When you go to steady you can TIE them together. However integrating ISOLATED (wigwag) vs PARALLELLED (steady), is the trick. I have written in great detail how to do this, with this circuit, one is solid state switching or mechanical switching. (SEE MY PICTURE ATTACHED BELOW) You either disagree, ignored it or think you can simplify it?

You are now talking a diode and non-specified mechanical switching? Draw it out as I asked before my friend. Just download my sketch, add in the parts and switching you think will work, to eliminate the two MOSFETS. It can be done as I said and draw below. Show me what you are talking about?

A completely different flip-flop/astable multivibrator circuit would be more suitable to what you are talking about, with the only advantage of may be a simple switch verses the 3PDT needed now to do the mechanical switching. The logic of why I did what I did was explained. Do you disagree or did you just ignore it? Please draw it out. It is not hard. Your word illustration is not really working for me. It does not sound like it will work. I don't mean to be rude, but this is not going any where. There is a limitation to this specific design. There is really no logical mod you can do that will be vastly more elegant to my way of thinking. If you disagree fine, show me. State why your way is better. There is NO DIODE needed to go from WIG-WAG to BOTH STEADY. A 3PDT switch can do it, but I like the electronic "solid state" switching. Again MOSFET $1.00 each.

The module will have SIX wires: 1) Pos/Hot; 2) Ground, 3) +12 volt "signal" for wigwag; 4) Ground "signal" for steady, 5) Left light; 6) Right Light. The drain on the signals will be mA's. The switch can be a DPDT of low current rating (mini switch).

This is your chance to shine. Go for it! Show me please, draw it out. I think you will find that the a diode or diodes will not work or not needed with proper switching. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. Work it out, think it out, get back to me. If not take care. I am pretty happy with this design (thanks RonV). I will know when I proto-board it. Again willing to try your idea, but you need to work it out. I don't think (no offense) you have worked it out or understand this basic design. The challenge is integrating WIGWAG with STEADY for sure in an elegant manner. The fact is, it's not easy. ALSO I DID NOT MENTION, there is some desire to be able to turn on only ONE or the other light steady! This would eliminate your suggestion, still I am interested in what you are saying. Cheers

I DREW IT OUT FOR YOU! \/\/\/\/\/
(if you are clever you will see a variation but why?)
 

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EEEW!! YuK.

Try the attached version. I just added 4 diodes to your design and cut out the two mosfets.

BTW, I used essentially the 555 design using transistors to build a solid state vibrator for a car radio and I gave a modification of the design to make an inverter for an AC synchonous motor that a co-worker wanted for his telesscope.

The wire-OR technique I used to make a headlight ON alarm. My alarm worked when the Driver's door was opened and the headlights were on. All I needed was a diode in series with a buzzer. Simple with no extra crap.

Getting on the right page with me is sometimes difficult. I'll agree. The CAD program that I really like is too expensive. www.vectorworks.com. Auto CAD sucks. LTspice might not be to bad. Diptrace isn't too bad either. I'm just not fast enough. In Vectorworks it would be cake. I have a couple of other ones, but I don't have any experience with them.

I do hope you agree, that my proposed method is easier. I'll answer some or all of your questions via PM.

KISS

PS: Ignore the lines that seem to go nowhere. Especially the ones on the right.

One or the other light steady, I think can be done too. I have to think about it.
 

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Flasher 2

It is a little trickier than it appears on the surface. As a matter of fact the circuit we have will leave the right side light on when the ignition is on but the small switch is in the off position. I thought the master was the light switch. Soooo, the circuit below will prevent this (No path from the 47k on the left FET to turn on the 2222 a little). Spice shows the 555 output low with no power supplied. I don't think that is correct so I think this will work. 3 pole switch.
 

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Sorry, I was scratching my head while Kiss posted. The diodes to the left side fet need to be reversed to turn it on with a negative on the gate.
 
Ahh, the FETs need a negative voltage to turn on. If that's the case then create another driver using a 2n2222 and create an inverter using a 2N2222.
 
I do hope you agree, that my proposed method is easier. I'll answer some or all of your questions via PM. PS: Ignore the lines that seem to go nowhere. Especially the ones on the right.

That will not work. Remember these are P channels and diodes work one way only.

- In steady M1 will not light ..... M2 works
- In flash M1 will not flash, only M2 flashes
- With steady position flash (555 timer) is still powered, there is no OFF.
(The master is HOT bus power, and flash with steady is not acceptable)

Sorry this is a total fail my friend. You could fix your idea with switch logic, and that would eliminate the need for diodes! See my attachments above with the 3PDT switch. What is wrong with that? Don't answer! That's rhetorical, there is nothing wrong with it, eliminates the two $1.00 transistors you seem to be so against, but you are more than willing to pepper the circuit with FOUR diodes? My basic design doesn't need fixing, it meets the design goal. Your idea does not work at all and still does not simplify anything. Come on man.

Sorry. Nice try! Unless the rules of diodes and MOSFET gates changed, your idea will not work. If you have any questions let me know. Try again and look at my example above; with ONLY two MOSFET's, mechanical switching and NO diodes, I achieve the design.

Also diodes, have switching delay and voltage drop, not desirable here. It would ruin a nice even WigWag, could introduce L to R timing difference. Regardless your design does not work as is at all. Diodes will not work as you drew them KISS. You added 4 diodes and made it not work. No offense.

AGAIN you can NOT tie the two channels which have reverse logic together, even with diodes, to get alternate AND steady flashing in the same circuit. It takes some mechanical or transistor switching! You can NOT tie the LEFT and RIGHT channels (Left and Right) lights together that need both HIGH and LOW signals (opposite) to light. You can make a flip flop so each channel has the same (both positive or neg signal) logic to fire each light. Then diodes night work, but it will not simplify much. As I explained I am partial to the 555 and not a fan of RC or SCR astable multivibrators. Nothing wrong with them, just the 555 is more stable and easy to use. There are ways to do this with out a 555 timer, but not with this base design. All I need is one of these switches, $4.25, eliminates the two transistors (no diodes):

https://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/STS-72/3PDT-ON-OFF-ON-TOGGLE-SWITCH/1.html

BTW I was hoping you would catch it, but I could use the same two MOSFET's for flash and steady with the above switch circuit. However if I get into a big 15 amp 3PDT switch, I might as well bypass the wigwag altogether. There is no NEED to use transistors for steady, except to allow lower rated switch. That is why I added to two additional MOSFET's. If I added another NPN transistor I could use a low rated SPDT switch.

Again the two transistors (four total) don't add much cost. I can use a bigger switch or smaller switch with transistors, but I reject your suggestion because it's unsatisfactory. Does not work or simplify anything.

Cheers

PS you can use FREEWARE to sketch my friend. Try Paint NET. There are also freeware circuit CAD programs, google is your friend. For simple stuff any DRAW program will work. There is also Adobe OpenOffice as well.

Again RONV THANKS!!!!!
 

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