Help with Water Pump

[4pyros]

Chances are the provided power supply's are SMPS bricks rather than just transformers.

Looking at the pictures and the fact they are 24 volt AC output, I would think they are just transformers.

 

[salty joe]

I had no idea any of that would even be an option. But from reef forums I've learned that the controllers that come with these pumps don't have a stellar record. Breakdowns inside a year are not uncommon. The pumps however seem real sturdy.

 

[Reloadron]

Looking at the pictures and the fact they are 24 volt AC output, I would think they are just transformers.

How the hell can you see that? Best I can see on that little label is 24 volts and earlier I thought it was 1000 mA but now maybe it says 1500 mA.

OK, I ripped the image and blew it up a little. Damn, I am getting old. Looks like 24 volts a small AC symbol and hell, they are 1500 mA. After 5 years time to see the eye doctor.

So if that is true those controllers must provide the DC? The motor label looks to say DC.

As to circuit breakers 220 volt 2 pole try a Google of QO220GFICP and sit down before looking at the prices.

A 24 volt (120 / 24) transformer would run about $50 give or take. I looked in my assorted junk and don't have anything. Add a bridge and some filtering and that would be a possible. This way the designed timing circuits could be used and the pumps kept happy.

Ron

 

[salty joe]

Yeah, 220 GFI is pretty pricey. Plus it would shut down the whole circuit.

The supplied controllers don't work the way I want. Plus I have read about more than one that took a dump in a matter of months. For all I know there might be zillions working like a champ and I happened to read about the losers, but my sense is the supplied controllers are kinda iffy. Even if they were rock solid, they don't work the way I want. Alec's and Collin's plans look good to me. I'm going to take a stab at building the four pump plan that you drew Alec to start.

You guys have all been amazing, I can't thank you enough. I'm hoping you all hang around while I try my hand at following a schematic.

 

[4pyros]

How the hell can you see that? Best I can see on that little label is 24 volts and earlier I thought it was 1000 mA but now maybe it says 1500 mA.

On the top of the transformer it says "AC to AC Converter" in big letters.

 

[()blivion]

"Looking at the pictures and the fact they are 24 volt AC output, I would think they are just transformers." "On the top of the transformer it says "AC to AC Converter" in big letters. "

oops... I'm an idiot. Didn't even try to blow up the images. Dam the metric system. I was going on the fact that it had cords going out both ends, which usually means power brick. Plus the pump says DC 24v on it... Figured it's slightly odd to do the AC to DC conversion in the controller when 90% of devices do it in the brick/wall wart. Stranger things have happened though.

In any case, after reevaluating the images, I'm incline to agree with you that it is in fact more than likely just a transformer.

 

[salty joe]

Here's the extended circuit to give separate control of both the 'on' and 'off' periods of four pumps completely independently. Note that the pumps are each represented here as an inductor in series with a resistor. BTW, the 'asc' file that you had difficulty opening is for running a simulation of the previous circuit in LTSpice.

I have decided to try Alec's plan from post 36 to control all four pumps independently.

Are diodes D1, D2, D4, D5, D7, D8, D10, and D11 diode 1N4148?

Are U2, U3, U4, U5, U6,U7, U8, and U9 100K pots?

The resistors shown at pumps 1-4, are they generic 16 ohm resistors?

I could not find the meaning of the curl with a 1 underneath at L2, L4, L6, and L8.

 

[Reloadron]

Are diodes D1, D2, D4, D5, D7, D8, D10, and D11 diode 1N4148?

Yes, that would be fine.

Are U2, U3, U4, U5, U6,U7, U8, and U9 100K pots?

No, The On Time pots are 1 Meg and the Off Time pots are 500K.

The resistors shown at pumps 1-4, are they generic 16 ohm resistors?

I could not find the meaning of the curl with a 1 underneath at L2, L4, L6, and L8.

What you see there is used to simulate the motors. Alec has placed an inductor and resistor in series and that merely simulates the motor. You would not use them. However, D3, D6, D9 and D12 are the flyback diodes to suppress noise from the motor.Those are actual parts. Everything in the dotted box is just to simulate the motor.

Make sense?

Ron

 

[salty joe]

Yes, thanks.

 

[alec_t]

Are diodes D1, D2, D4, D5, D7, D8, D10, and D11 diode 1N4148?

Yes. Non-critical; any general-purpose signal diodes will do.

Are U2, U3, U4, U5, U6,U7, U8, and U9 100K pots?

No. U2, U4, U6 and U8 are all 1Meg pots; U3, U5, U7, U9 are all 500k pots (but 1Meg would be ok if you can't get 500k). [The values are the 'Rtot' figures in the text above the pots].

The resistors shown at pumps 1-4, are they generic 16 ohm resistors?

They aren't actually used in the build. They merely represent the assumed (modelled) inherent resistance values of the pump windings for simulation purposes. Likewise L2, L4, L6, L8 (the curly components) represent the pump winding inductances, with an assumed value of 1 Henry.
Good luck with the build. Unless you can fit the FETs very close to the IC inverters U1a,b,c... it would be advisable to connect a respective 10 Ohm resistor (not shown) close to the gate terminal of each FET to damp any unwanted oscillation. I.e. each 10 Ohm is connected in series from its inverter to its FET gate. Note the IC is static-sensitive. You may wish to mount it in a DIL socket. Because of the high circuit impedances the circuit needs to be in a screened enclosure.

 

[salty joe]

Thanks for the heads up on the 10 ohm resistors. A DIL socket gets soldered, then the IC is inserted into the DIL socket-is that right?

"Because of the high circuit impedances the circuit needs to be in a screened enclosure."
Are you referring to the IC or the entire circiut? Is the screen enclosure another part I need to get?

 

[salty joe]

https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html

This is the multi tester I have. Will it do the trick for this build?
Temperature controlled soldering station & pumps are on the way. Should the temperature be set to where the solder just melts, or hot enough to melt it quickly?

 

[4pyros]

A DIL socket gets soldered, then the IC is inserted into the DIL socket-is that right?

Yes a DIL is "dual in line" with the socket if the IC ever goes bad it is easier to replace.

 

[4pyros]

"Because of the high circuit impedances the circuit needs to be in a screened enclosure."
Are you referring to the IC or the entire circiut? Is the screen enclosure another part I need to get?

The hole circuit board should be in a metal box with a ground attached to it.

 

[4pyros]

Should the temperature be set to where the solder just melts, or hot enough to melt it quickly?

That will vary depending on how much metal you are trying to heat up. Big wires need more heat. You will need to get a feel for it.

 

[()blivion]

The hole circuit board should be in a metal box with a ground attached to it.

I agree with this assessment, and it would be best if it were water proof too.

Below is a link to decent selection of water tight metal box's for you. You should prolly paint it to keep it from corroding, and make sure you cover the inside with an insulator so your project doesn't end up shorting out against the case. Something like really thick exterior paint could serve both functions. The water proofing is obviously to keep saltwater out. If you don't care about that to much you can just use a different metal box and save some cash.

https://www.budind.com/sealed_aluminum.php

 

[salty joe]

Thanks guys. A grounded metal box it is. Not too concerned about being waterproof. It'll be mounted above the tank away from any areas where it might get splashed or encounter salt creep. Humidity is what worries me. I have some semi-ridgid plastic, maybe that would be a good way to insulate the circiut from the box.

BTW, do you think my low budget multi tester https://www.harborfreight.com/7-funct...ter-90899.html is sufficient for this build? I have only used it for continuity and to see if a wire is hot, so no matter what I'll need to learn how to use a multi tester.

 

[alec_t]

That multimeter looks fine for this project. Just make sure you don't have it set on a Current range when you're trying to measure Voltage ;-)

Humidity is what worries me

With the assembled circuit protected by a conformal coating it should be ok. Apart from corrosion of any exposed metal the most likely symptom of a humidity problem would be a reduction of the pump on and off periods because of an effective reduction of the resistances set by the pots.

 

[salty joe]

I was wondering... in a circuit like this, will just as much current be drawn regardless if the pump happens to be running or not?

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Joe

Current will only be drawn as a pump or pumps run. For example if I have 4 pumps that draw 1.3 amps each, when all 4 are running they would draw about 4 * 1.3 = 5.2 amps. If 2 were running then about 2.6 amps, and so it goes.

Ron