How does Bose create small speakers which produce powerful sound?

SeekingProtection said:

By your user ID, I'm guessing you'd have pretty good knowledge about audio. Tell us, was the bass one-note, as crutschow says?

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The "home theater Acoustimass speakers" use a little 5.25" car door speaker as its sub-woofer and produces a strong resonance at about 120Hz. Then ordinary people who know nothing about sound systems hear the 120Hz and think it is bass and believe their ad that says impossible things about it.
Ordinary people also think an expensive system is better than a lesser costing system without knowing how much profit Bose makes.

Do you think Bose speakers are still flat sounding? It must have been a long time, as they are no longer doing that show of hiding small speakers in a large box and revealing them at the end of the demo.

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They never sold the demo speakers, instead they were showing how well they can hide a huge sub-woofer.

How important are the technical details in speakers? Bose doesn't publish them but people seem to think they sound great, but audiophiles say they are ignorant consumers.

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Technical details are VERY important. Some poor quality manufacturers say the frequency response is 20Hz to 20kHz and ordinary people think it is good. But the ordinary people do not know about the deviation which might be plus or minus 30dB which is terrible or might be plus or minus 3dB which is pretty good.

audioguru said:

The "home theater Acoustimass speakers" use a little 5.25" car door speaker as its sub-woofer and produces a strong resonance at about 120Hz. Then ordinary people who know nothing about sound systems hear the 120Hz and think it is bass and believe their ad that says impossible things about it.
Ordinary people also think an expensive system is better than a lesser costing system without knowing how much profit Bose makes.

They never sold the demo speakers, instead they were showing how well they can hide a huge sub-woofer.

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I'm sure they must have sold different units of the model which they demoed.

audioguru said:

Technical details are VERY important. Some poor quality manufacturers say the frequency response is 20Hz to 20kHz and ordinary people think it is good. But the ordinary people do not know about the deviation which might be plus or minus 30dB which is terrible or might be plus or minus 3dB which is pretty good.

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JBL doesn't show the flatness rating of their consumer speakers, but they show frequency response, does that make JBL a bad speaker company? Their consumer speakers are some of the best one can buy in the market.

Almost all headphone and earphone manufacturers also don't show flatness rating but show frequency response, does that meant that their headphones and earphones sound bad?

Sennheiser doesn't show it.
Beyerdynamic doesn't show it.
Bowers & Wilkins doesn't show it. (for their earphones and headphones)

Humans don't have a reference output of a track to compare it against a speakers reproduction of it with their ears, so how exactly does flatness rating help? Is it more to assure oneself than the actual deviation from a flat reproduction?

SeekingProtection said:

I'm sure they must have sold different units of the model which they demoed.



JBL doesn't show the flatness rating of their consumer speakers, but they show frequency response, does that make JBL a bad speaker company? Their consumer speakers are some of the best one can buy in the market.

Almost all headphone and earphone manufacturers also don't show flatness rating but show frequency response, does that meant that their headphones and earphones sound bad?

Sennheiser doesn't show it.
Beyerdynamic doesn't show it.
Bowers & Wilkins doesn't show it. (for their earphones and headphones)

Humans don't have a reference output of a track to compare it against a speakers reproduction of it with their ears, so how exactly does flatness rating help? Is it more to assure oneself than the actual deviation from a flat reproduction?

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How can one show frequency response without showing the "flatness" of the frequency response?
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gophert said:

How can one show frequency response without showing the "flatness" of the frequency response?
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I don't know, JBL does that, and many other speaker manufacturers do that also.

Here is a link to JBL's Stage series, they show frequency response but not flatness rating: https://www.jbl.com/on/demandware.s...c/pdfs/JBL_Arena_Stage_Spec_Sheet_English.pdf

I found the same omission for their Arena series too.

I forgot to mention. Onkyo's top of the line HTiB's speakers have +/- 3dB flatness rating, but they don't publish this, I read it on a review site, when they measured it.

A similar Bowers & Wilkins' speaker system would cost a lot of money. For example, the Onkyo HTiB system costs around $1099(this is including the receiver). A similar B & W's speaker costs around $7000(without the receiver). Since Onkyo's and B & W's have the same flatness rating, does that mean Onkyo's sound just as good as B & W's? Why are people wasting money buying B & W when they can get the same from Onkyo for lot less money.

What other characteristics of B & W's make them better than Onkyo's? And why don't reputed speaker manufacturer's publish them also?

SeekingProtection said:

I don't know, JBL does that, and many other speaker manufacturers do that also.

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What do they do? Above, you claim they somehow show frequency response in such a way that I cannot elucidate the flatness of the frequency response. The whole point of a frequency response curve is to show whether it is flat or has resonances or valleys that are not flat.

gophert said:

What do they do? Above, you claim they somehow show frequency response in such a way that I cannot elucidate the flatness of the frequency response. The whole point of a frequency response curve is to show whether it is flat or has resonances or valleys that are not flat.

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I updated my comment with link to the JBL's speakers. You can check it yourself.

JBL only says their speakers have a frequency response, they do not show any data. A graph is needed or a description of the graph is needed. Simple descriptions can be deceptive.

Read this.
https://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/

gophert said:

JBL only says their speakers have a frequency response, they do not show any data. A graph is needed or a description of the graph is needed. Simple descriptions can be deceptive.

Read this.
https://www.ecoustics.com/articles/understanding-speaker-frequency-response/

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Yes, but that is what most speaker manufacturers are publishing these days. Even Bowers & Wilkins' doesn't publish graphs with description.

I know that only Swan, a Chinese manufacturer, does publish graphs of the speaker with the box. But I'm sure audiophiles would rank it far below B & W.

As B & W doesn't publish some necessary details about their speakers, why should Bose be lambasted for not publishing frequency response, etc?

Anyway, even if a speaker manufacturer published such data, how can one know that the unit they received will have the same frequency response and flatness rating, maybe for that particular rating, they constructed one special speaker to produce such response, and they made hundreds of copies of those tests, supplied it in other units of the same model, there is no way for us to tell that other units of the same speaker model will also have the same rating, until we do measurements in an anechoic chamber, how many of us will do that for every speaker we purchase?

We can't even know if the measurement graphs are even real, companies might adopt deceptive and fraudulent practices, and just draw up a graph which they know will please the audiophiles.

Most users don't listen to speakers they buy in anechoic chamber, so how much does that matter? In a users room, certain sounds might be quieter, certain other sounds might be louder, a user will not correct the defects in their room, that would mean removing objects and moving things around. Unless one has a dedicated room and they can measure the speakers they buy, these specifications don't really help that much. (Unless you trust the speaker manufacturing company)

SeekingProtection said:

Most users don't listen to speakers they buy in anechoic chamber, so how much does that matter? In a users room, certain sounds might be quieter, certain other sounds might be louder, a user will not correct the defects in their room, that would mean removing objects and moving things around. Unless one has a dedicated room and they can measure the speakers they buy, these specifications don't really help that much. (Unless you trust the speaker manufacturing company)

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Correct, so go back to my first post on this thread and do/believe what you want. Sound is a personal perception - so is odor, color, taste...

gophert said:

Correct, so go back to my first post on this thread and do/believe what you want. Sound is a personal perception - so is odor, color, taste...

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Sorry, I didn't mean to come off hostile.

I'm just trying to understand why audiophiles place so much importance on those specifications.

Although I would like to know which speaker companies you know publish those graphs. I think I know almost all the highly reputed speaker companies, but not a single one of them seem to publish them.

Why don't earphone and headphone companies show flatness rating?

SeekingProtection said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off hostile.

I'm just trying to understand why audiophiles place so much importance on those specifications.

Although I would like to know which speaker companies you know publish those graphs. I think almost all the highly reputed speaker companies, but not a single one of them seem to be publish them.

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3rd party testing companies, reviewers often test and publish information on speakers. Speaker companies likely do not do this because manufacturing variations or slight testing procedure/equipment variations will make results ambiguous or debatable. People with experienced ears can likely hear the peaks and valleys - especially if they know the audio source very well.

A frequency response statement without a deviation from flatness is meaningless.
A cheap speaker "responds" at DC and at radio frequencies by making heat, not sound, but IT IS responding.
Sound levels are measured with decibels, not with words. The deviation from flatness shows if it sounds like a bongo drum or like an AM radio.

When a speaker has a flat frequency response then the user can use equalization (or simple tone controls) to correct errors caused by his room.

Parts Express (.com) sell raw speakers and kits of speakers. Most of them have a frequency response curve and the kits are showed and said to have a flat well balanced frequency response.

I bought crossover coils from a local high end speaker manufacturer. Their speakers looked beautiful and were very expensive. But their coils performed poorly so I measured the inductance, it was WRONG. I took a frequency response analyser to their plant and showed them the poor frequency response caused by the coil error and they were shocked.

audioguru said:

A frequency response statement without a deviation from flatness is meaningless.
A cheap speaker "responds" at DC and at radio frequencies by making heat, not sound, but IT IS responding.
Sound levels are measured with decibels, not with words. The deviation from flatness shows if it sounds like a bongo drum or like an AM radio.

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But that is the kind of information most speaker manufacturers are publishing these days. Even Bowers & Wilkins, JBL, Paradigm, etc.

In light of this, Bose not publishing those specifications, doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary, they seem to be simplifying the decision for the consumer.

audioguru said:

When a speaker has a flat frequency response then the user can use equalization (or simple tone controls) to correct errors caused by his room.

Parts Express (.com) sell raw speakers and kits of speakers. Most of them have a frequency response curve and the kits are showed and said to have a flat well balanced frequency response.

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We can only take their word for it, unless we can measure it.

audioguru said:

I bought crossover coils from a local high end speaker manufacturer. Their speakers looked beautiful and were very expensive. But their coils performed poorly so I measured the inductance, it was WRONG. I took a frequency response analyser to their plant and showed them the poor frequency response caused by the coil error and they were shocked.

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That's shocking, similar thing can happen with their speakers also. Or speakers of B & W, JBL, etc.

I asked these earlier but no one answered.

If Onkyo's satellite speakers have the same frequency response and flatness rating as what B & W claims their bookshelf speakers have. How are B & W's better? They cost lot more than Onkyo's. What other specifications of B & W's would make them better than Onkyo's?

What is the reason flatness rating is not published for earphones and headphones?

In olden days James B Lansing was an American engineer for JBL and Altec Lansing. Then Decker who was the business partner with Lansing died in an airplane crash and Lansing did poorly with business, had financial problems then committed suicide. In "the good old days" JBL went though a few owners, was bought by Harman (remember Harman Kardon?) then Harman was bought by Samsung of South Korea.

I think consumer speaker companies do not publish detailed spec's because the average consumer is stupid about technical details. Many "pro" speakers are made to be very loud then they have a horrible frequency response that is made half-decent with equalization. Hobbyists buy raw speakers from Parts Express and others because they want the detailed spec's.

Headphones are not measured because the average ear canal varies a lot. The tiny speaker in a headphone is small and lightweight so it can produce a very flat and wide frequency response.

I love to hear good music but have "normal for my age (73)" high frequency hearing loss and my hearing aids are programed to correct the loss and correct deviations in the transducer's response so that they sound the same as when I was young. I think many old people are tone deaf and are actually deaf so they don't care about normal hearing.

audioguru said:

the average consumer is stupid about technical details

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uneducated

If you take two identical speakers but drive one set 1db louder; people can not hear the "loudness" difference but will say one sounds better. Some stores have AB testes. People will choose the loudest speaker. The BBC did a study showing the loudest radio station was picked as sounding best, and the compression and peak limiting and resulting distortion seemed to not be a factor. Most speaker companies know the efficiency (electricity to sound level) winds the race in simple AB tests.

The best speaker is the one that convinces you to pay money for it.

The real test is, does it sound like live music?
If you can close you eyes and it seems like the real performance is in front of you, then you have a good system.

audioguru said:

I think consumer speaker companies do not publish detailed spec's because the average consumer is stupid about technical details. Many "pro" speakers are made to be very loud then they have a horrible frequency response that is made half-decent with equalization. Hobbyists buy raw speakers from Parts Express and others because they want the detailed spec's.

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Can Bose really be criticized for going overboard with not publishing essential details of the speakers, which the other companies are also not providing fully?

SeekingProtection said:

Can Bose really be criticized for going overboard with not publishing essential details of the speakers, which the other companies are also not providing fully?

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Yes, because Bose deliberately don't publish details because they are so poor - most other companies provide far more detail, and particularly so at the high price point of Bose.