How does Bose create small speakers which produce powerful sound?

audioguru · Apr 29, 2019

crutschow said:
The real test is, does it sound like live music?
If you can close you eyes and it seems like the real performance is in front of you, then you have a good system.

I disagree. A live concert might have an awful sound system, echoes and is full of errors. A song or orchestra is recorded sometimes with 24 "takes" and only the best parts are put together on an album that is sold.

SeekingProtection · Apr 29, 2019

Nigel Goodwin said:
Yes, because Bose deliberately don't publish details because they are so poor - most other companies provide far more detail, and particularly so at the high price point of Bose.

Other companies like JBL, Bowers & Wilkins only publish statements about frequency response. (without flatness rating in case of JBL). If you've seen above discussion, you'd see that audioguru and gophert have said that these details are meaningless without graphs and description of graphs, Bose goes one step further and doesn't even publish these details, seems no different than JBL, B & W, they are saving consumers from confusion.

JBL and B & W publishing statements about frequency response puts an onus on them to corroborate their statements with graphs, etc. If companies are not corroborating their claims, their statements will be disbelieved, to sidestep this, Bose seems to omit them. Why claim if you can't corroborate? Bose not publishing details of their speakers isn't any different than JBL not publishing their flatness rating for their consumer speakers, and B & W not corroborating their claims with graphs.

In your comment, does the word "detail" used 2nd time, refer to the sound reproduction detail or specifications detail?

SeekingProtection · Apr 29, 2019

audioguru said:
I disagree. A live concert might have an awful sound system, echoes and is full of errors. A song or orchestra is recorded sometimes with 24 "takes" and only the best parts are put together on an album that is sold.

Then what would be the real test?

audioguru · Apr 29, 2019

A RadioShack bookshelf speaker went on sale. I peeked at it and saw that its 6.5" woofer was high quality but its tweeter was just a cheap simple cone and its crossover was a simple capacitor. Its enclosure was sealed producing poor bass response. I made it into a challenge:
1) I selected a good quality dome tweeter.
2) I designed a proper 3rd order crossover network.
3) I designed a port for the enclosure to make deep bass.
Then it sounded great.

crutschow · Apr 29, 2019

SeekingProtection said:
Then what would be the real test?

The best live music to use as a reference is probably an orchestra in a well (acoustically) designed concert hall, that has no added electronic amplification.
The recordings of such orchestras are also generally well done to reproduce the sound reasonably accurately.
If you've never heard that, then I'm not sure what else would be a good reference, since most other live music is heavily amplified and often distorted.

unclejed613 · Apr 29, 2019

Bose relies on a quirk of the human brain to make speakers that sound like they have deep loud bass, even though they are lacking the two lowest octaves. there's an effect where mid-bass is amplitude modulated with small amounts of subharmonic information, which gets interpreted by the brain as an octave or two lower. it's a very subtle effect, and it seems to work. but, if you listen to a bose system in an A-B test with a system with a real subwoofer, you can definitely tell the difference.

unclejed613 · Apr 29, 2019

SeekingProtection said:
What other characteristics of B & W's make them better than Onkyo's? And why don't reputed speaker manufacturer's publish them also?

i had a customer that had bought a pair of SONUS towers, and blew them up 3 times in a year (SONUS and B&W are in the same price bracket). SONUS' warranty does not replace burned out drivers. if the voice coil is fried, you pay for the new drivers. the customer asked why did i think he might be frying the speakers. turned out the speakers were 100 watt speakers, and the customer had a receiver that was 250W/ch, and he likes his music loud.... i asked him whether he bought the speakers for their looks or their sound. he bought them for their sound, and really didn't care what they looked like, as a matter of fact he was kind of skiddish about having speakers from that price bracket. the speakers (much like B&W speakers) had a sensitivity figure of 85db/1W/1m which is about average. i found a set of pro audio PA cabinets rated at 300+ watts continuous, with a frequency response curve about the same as the SONUS speakers, at 1/5 the price he paid for his speakers. they were rated at 95db/1W/1m sensitivity (a 10db gain over the SONUS speakers). he replaced his SONUSes with the PA cabinets and was really happy with them.

audioguru · Apr 29, 2019

I dislike the sound of high efficiency Pro-sound compression horns for the high end because they make all instruments and some vocals sound like horns.

ChrisP58 · Apr 30, 2019

gophert said:
Maybe this sign would be a better sign...

Here's my take on the subject...

unclejed613 · Apr 30, 2019

audioguru said:
I dislike the sound of high efficiency Pro-sound compression horns for the high end because they make all instruments and some vocals sound like horns.

with the usual cheap plastic ones, that does happen somewhat, but that's more of a function of the construction and materials. the walls are thin and have mechanical resonances within the frequency range of the driver. made with stronger materials, and coatings that deaden resonances, midrange horns can sound good. it's also possible that geometry has something to do with how they sound. horn channel flares are supposed to be exponential, but a lot of them look closer to cylindrical, which doesn't provide proper coupling of the wavefront from restricted airspace (directly around the diaphragm) to free airspace.

somebody mentioned Onkyo subwoofers.... my experience repairing them gives me a less than stellar opinion of them, at least the ones i have seen in the last 10 years. the low end of Onkyo subwoofers (note: Onkyo OEMs them as Insignia also) are awful. one production run had woofers with the tinsel wires too long, so the tinsel wires would bump into the cone, and flex in the middle, and so the tinsel wires would break right in the middle. the port had nothing at the end to prevent things from being dropped inside, and the end of the port was right over the amplifier. children like to hide things in subwoofer ports, even metallic things like coins. another problem with subwoofer ports, especially when they are very near the floor, is they provide warm places for mice to hide.

SeekingProtection · Apr 30, 2019

unclejed613 said:
with the usual cheap plastic ones, that does happen somewhat, but that's more of a function of the construction and materials. the walls are thin and have mechanical resonances within the frequency range of the driver. made with stronger materials, and coatings that deaden resonances, midrange horns can sound good. it's also possible that geometry has something to do with how they sound. horn channel flares are supposed to be exponential, but a lot of them look closer to cylindrical, which doesn't provide proper coupling of the wavefront from restricted airspace (directly around the diaphragm) to free airspace.

somebody mentioned Onkyo subwoofers.... my experience repairing them gives me a less than stellar opinion of them, at least the ones i have seen in the last 10 years. the low end of Onkyo subwoofers (note: Onkyo OEMs them as Insignia also) are awful. one production run had woofers with the tinsel wires too long, so the tinsel wires would bump into the cone, and flex in the middle, and so the tinsel wires would break right in the middle. the port had nothing at the end to prevent things from being dropped inside, and the end of the port was right over the amplifier. children like to hide things in subwoofer ports, even metallic things like coins. another problem with subwoofer ports, especially when they are very near the floor, is they provide warm places for mice to hide.

I brought up Onkyo speakers, not sub-woofers specifically.

Here is a Bose employee claiming:

...Bose’s computer-design and technical facilities are right up there with some of the best brands. Bose even has a large anechoic chamber on premises, which most speaker companies do not. Whether mechanical, electrical, acoustic, materials, transducer, certification or any other area of engineering, rest assured, Bose is at the very top of the heap.

...Bose’s engineering prowess is such that they could do Stereophile-recommended speakers in their sleep—if they wanted. Think people like Holl and David Smith don’t understand how to design superb speakers?

Link: https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/bose-conundrum

dknguyen · Apr 30, 2019

crutschow said:
The real test is, does it sound like live music?
If you can close you eyes and it seems like the real performance is in front of you, then you have a good system.

But...doesn't most live performance music sound like ****? Or are you referring to "live in the recording studio" and not "live at a concert". Because I think in most concerts the acoustics suck and everything is cranked up to be as loud as possible, unless it's something high end like an orchestra with good acoustics where people are actually quiet and listen.

crutschow · Apr 30, 2019

dknguyen said:
But...doesn't live music sound like ****? Or are you referring to "live in the recording studio" and not "live at a concert". Concerts are seem so much more common that when I hear "live" I think "concert" where everything is made to be as loud as possible.

As I mentioned in post #45, an orchestra in a concert hall with no sound amplification, is probably the only place you can accurately hear live music.

audioguru · Apr 30, 2019

I did not like my local concert hall because the speakers were always too loud and sounded like horns.
When the music was soft I could hear the ultrasonic burglar detector blasting. I asked the management why the ultrasonic thing was always turned on they said "because nobody can hear it" but when I was a teenager then I and probably a few other people could hear it clearly.

nsaspook · Apr 30, 2019

The room makes the sound even with the best speakers. My hand built HT room with bass traps, wall treatments and dampers could even make a cheap boombox sound good. The RS speakers were gutted, and rebuilt with pro-audio drivers and crossovers with a Bass shaker seating platform for movie effect on a 500W amp.

crutschow · Apr 30, 2019

If you want to understand how to accurately reproduce stereo music with a wide soundstage, where the speakers disappear, read the information on the Linkwitz website.
Siegfried Linkwitz was the co-inventor of the Linkwitz-Riley crossover filter, which is used in most high-end speakers.
I think he was (died in 2018) one of the most knowledgeable persons anywhere about how to accurately reproduce the illusion of live music in a room, and why standard speakers, even very expensive ones, generally don't do that well.
Those speakers may reproduce all the sounds with high accuracy and low distortion but you are still aware that you are listening to a speaker and can point to their location with your eyes closed.
Making the speaker (location) disappear is the ultimate goal, and I believe Linkwitz has pretty well accomplished that with his designs.

My goal is to build a pair of his LXmini speakers, just to experience what he is talking about.

gophert · Apr 30, 2019

crutschow said:
If you want to understand how to accurately reproduce stereo music with a wide soundstage, where the speakers disappear, read the information on the Linkwitz website.
Siegfried Linkwitz was the co-inventor of the Linkwitz-Riley crossover filter, which is used in most high-end speakers.
I think he was (died in 2018) one of the most knowledgeable persons anywhere about how to accurately reproduce the illusion of live music in a room, and why standard speakers, even very expensive ones, generally don't do that well.
Those speakers may reproduce all the sounds with high accuracy and low distortion but you are still aware that you are listening to a speaker and can point to their location with your eyes closed.
Making the speaker (location) disappear is the ultimate goal, and I believe Linkwitz has pretty well accomplished that with his designs.

My goal is to build a pair of his LXmini speakers, just to experience what he is talking about.

I don't understand the need to make the speakers "disappear". Do we expect a drummer or other performer to "disappear" to make live music more accurately represent unnoticed speakers?

crutschow · May 1, 2019

gophert said:
I don't understand the need to make the speakers "disappear". Do we expect a drummer or other performer to "disappear" to make live music more accurately represent unnoticed speakers?

I don't follow your logic.
By disappear I mean you don't want to be able to identify the speaker as the source of the sound. The drummer should seem to be coming from his location on the stage, not from a speaker.

SeekingProtection · May 1, 2019

crutschow said:
If you want to understand how to accurately reproduce stereo music with a wide soundstage, where the speakers disappear, read the information on the Linkwitz website.
Siegfried Linkwitz was the co-inventor of the Linkwitz-Riley crossover filter, which is used in most high-end speakers.
I think he was (died in 2018) one of the most knowledgeable persons anywhere about how to accurately reproduce the illusion of live music in a room, and why standard speakers, even very expensive ones, generally don't do that well.
Those speakers may reproduce all the sounds with high accuracy and low distortion but you are still aware that you are listening to a speaker and can point to their location with your eyes closed.
Making the speaker (location) disappear is the ultimate goal, and I believe Linkwitz has pretty well accomplished that with his designs.

My goal is to build a pair of his LXmini speakers, just to experience what he is talking about.

Thanks for Siegfried Linkwitz and his speaker designs, I didn't even know about him. I'll definitely try to build his LXmini. It's a very unique speaker design.

JimB · May 1, 2019

nsaspook said:
The room makes the sound even with the best speakers. My hand built HT room with bass traps, wall treatments and dampers could even make a cheap boombox sound good. The RS speakers were gutted, and rebuilt with pro-audio drivers and crossovers with a Bass shaker seating platform for movie effect on a 500W amp.

Not exactly my "thing", but I admire your thorough approach to a solution that works for you.

JimB

How does Bose create small speakers which produce powerful sound?

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