Is There an Engineering Type: what is your experience?

Perhaps a voice recorder app for your smartphone. Would be hands free. Just a thought.

Inquisitive said:

Perhaps a voice recorder app for your smartphone. Would be hands free. Just a thought.

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I have called myself and left voicemails before LOL. Yes a recorder would make a lot of sense. I will try it but I suspect it will be as helpful as my calendar is. In order for a calendar to help you remember important appointments, you have to remember to populate the calendar. Which renders it almost useless to me. Maybe I could mount a dash cam in my truck pointed the wrong way. Then my spontaneous monologue is captured by default.

strantor said:

I never realized there was a "spelling thing" among "engineering types." - I learn something new every day (gotta be careful with that saying from now on; seems it started this whole episode)

I do notice it when poring through source code however, from sites like github and the like. I had attributed it to language barrier, but I suppose it could be a manifestation of the "spelling thing" among Software Engineers.

It seems like it would dovetail nicely with the "handwriting thing;" while stereotypically attributed to Medical Doctors, illegible handwriting might be another attribute of "engineering types." I know personally, sometimes I cannot read my own. Especially when it's something I scrawled in crayon on a greasy napkin in my lap while driving. I hate it when epiphanies come to me from behind the wheel. It's like an explosion of neural activity; a puff of idea confetti that must be collected mid-air, lest some of it settle in unknown locations and be lost forever. But, I think most of my epiphanies do come while driving. I have over an hour drive to and from work; it's the only time I'm left alone to my thoughts while not sleeping, or falling asleep.

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In my experience the spelling thing is very common among engineers as is various degrees of dyslexia . In my case word blindness too. I find it almost impossible to know how to vocalize a written word that I have not seen before.

I am not aware of engineers having especially bad handwriting, like doctors. Illegible handwriting is a pet hate, because it defeats the objective of writing in the fist place. But that does not mean that I don't appreciate that people do have problems with writing. I think, though that handwriting can be greatly improved by a bit of tuition and effort though (that sounds a bit condescending!)

I had to look up the meaning of epiphanies (but I have no idea how to pronounce it) - a sudden idea.

I have read quite a bit about creative people, especially authors and composers. They too have sudden ideas, and say that it is most important to capture them there and then, otherwise they will be lost. Consequently many keep notebooks, which is something I have done since about age 25. Also I keep a large desk diary and record the main points of most days. You would be surprised how often this approach has paid dividends. The last entry in my notebook was details of a holiday we have booked in September 2016: hotel, flight etc etc. Before that there is a list of MOSFET driver chips and before that a quotation that I thought was particularly clever.

I don't know if anyone else on ETO has this, but sometimes I get designer's block and a design will grow and grow in complexity without really sorting the main issue. Then something will happen that results in a complete re think and a much better design. Quite often that happens after going to bed. In the morning you wake with a new perspective.

I see you were in the military, as I was. The military type is another with very strong characteristics. When I joined civvy street it was a big shock- no one told you what to do and you even had to choose what clothes to wear to work too. My first job was to write a program to test a piece of equipment on an Automatic Test Equipment (ATE). I was given the circuit diagram of the Unit Under Test (UUT), and pointed at the ATE and that was that. Previously, in the RAF, everything had been defined in manuals!

The company I worked for were stupid about 'old' engineers , instead of bringing them in as call dispatchers, or customer help desk. they were sidelined , fetching parts or storemen or installation gofors , so when an FE called in Friday lunchtime, told a office 'clerk' he was off to swap a pc keyboard , and would be unavailable for a couple of hours, nothing was said. its called 'pulling wool over eyes' ( dont know why ?)

EE company's need ' Intelligence'

Have i strayed again

granddad said:

The company I worked for were stupid about 'old' engineers , instead of bringing them in as call dispatchers, or customer help desk. they were sidelined , fetching parts or storemen or installation gofors , so when an FE called in Friday lunchtime, told a office 'clerk' he was off to swap a pc keyboard , and would be unavailable for a couple of hours, nothing was said. its called 'pulling wool over eyes' ( dont know why ?)

EE company's need ' Intelligence'

Have i strayed again

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This is a classic case of a company not making the best use of it's most valuable, and expensive assets: its staff. I have seen this sort of thing time and time again. There should be only one basis for staff assessment, regardless of race, colour, creed, sex, or age, etc and that is merit. What you describe is a classic case of a badly managed company. This failing is covered by, if your face fits.

I had a small company funded project and got hold of a recent grad to do the firmware side. I had done the hardware design, including the micro I/O requirements and had a meeting with this lad to get an estimate of the effort required to do the coding. I was expecting something pretty heavy like three man months. At the meeting he said it was an awkward job with quite a few unknowns, also the data throughput was tight. He said it would be pretty expensive and could take three or four... weeks. Anyway he did the job in two weeks, including the documentation and, to cap it all, the firmware worked flawlessly. Also when I asked for mods he did them right away, so the code must have been very well structured.

He wasn't being paid much and had a few job offers and, as I was keen to keep him on the project, I went to see personnel (now Human Factors) and explained the situation. They said they would see what could be done. The weeks went by and, still no pay rise, so in the end this wizz-kid left, all for the sake of about £500 UK per annum. Apparently there was nothing the company could do, but I knew that other lesser grads were paid more. I never did find out what was going on. The only thing I could imagine was that he was a typical student type in his dress and demeanor. In other words, his face did not fit.

No you haven't strayed, and even if you did a bit, it would not matter much on this thread.

spec: Thanks for starting this thread. I have to spend some time digesting. I've just read it for the first time. It's a discussion without bashing and no wrong answers. Hooray!

strantor: I loved some of your responses.

I need to let this stuff sink in before I contribute.

Hi Keep,

Glad you find this thread of interest, but it was strantor who started it really- I just organized, with the help of the other contributors, the move of the relevant posts here. I look forward to reading any contributions that you may have.

Cheers

spec

spec said:

I look forward to reading any contributions that you may have.

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Yes, KeepItSimpleStupid please do reply when you get a chance. My sanity and sense of identity is on the line here

Just kidding, but it is a bit of an echo chamber in here; tell all your friends about us.

spec said:

WOW, now that is interesting and pretty much reflects the position most people find themselves, especially these days with all this management stuff that is creeping in (BS). It seems that there are two very broad types of people, not only in the work space but also life generally:

(1) Self orientated
(2) Product orientated

The (1) person has little connection with the product, (item, or service) and is only motivated by progressing his own career. This is not as bad as it sounds, because in a good organization, there should be no conflict between self and product. The problems arise when that is not the case.

The (2) person recognizes that the only thing that makes the company profitable is the product & by inference the customer. Once again this only holds if the customer has a good organization. This type of person normally has an innate interest in the product and also insists on things being done right. In my case, if I see something that is not designed properly, for some reason, it annoys me. And if, by mistake, I buy something that is not designed properly it annoys me intensely.

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Comment:

The product oriented person may be visible or invisible. I was mostly invisible. The product may be the product being manufactured/researched or the machies necessary to do the manufacturing/research.

The problem is, the invisible guy is "never acknowledged". If changes resulted in no computer repairs except mechanical and power supplies for 20 years with an investment of $1000, who's going to notice?

Who's going to notice when you mention that oilers are needed for double acting air cylinders. I added it on a machine that I helped build, then all of the other machines got them.

I was annoyed that I had to disassemble over 40 brand new solenoid valves and clean to remove the dust to prevent chattering. "Dust"!

A push for standardization, so vacuum pumps could be swapped. Over time, both electrical and vacuum connections were standardized. i.e. Next rebuild.

Or the 3 foot diameter o-ring which cost $400 from the manufacturer. Two were custom made for a lot less.

They were "little things" that lasted a lifetime.

KeepItSimpleStupid said:

Comment:
The product oriented person may be visible or invisible. I was mostly invisible. The product may be the product being manufactured/researched or the machies necessary to do the manufacturing/research.
The problem is, the invisible guy is "never acknowledged". If changes resulted in no computer repairs except mechanical and power supplies for 20 years with an investment of $1000, who's going to notice?
Who's going to notice when you mention that oilers are needed for double acting air cylinders. I added it on a machine that I helped build, then all of the other machines got them.
I was annoyed that I had to disassemble over 40 brand new solenoid valves and clean to remove the dust to prevent chattering. "Dust"!
A push for standardization, so vacuum pumps could be swapped. Over time, both electrical and vacuum connections were standardized. i.e. Next rebuild.
Or the 3 foot diameter o-ring which cost $400 from the manufacturer. Two were custom made for a lot less.
They were "little things" that lasted a lifetime.

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Hy Keep,

You have just highlighted one of the major problems with companies which has always existed: they do not recognise/reward technical achievements. Although I worked at the same site for 40 years, the company ownership and management style changed often, especially in the later years. When I first went there in the 1960s it was very much engineering oriented. There was engineering departments answering directly to the managing director who was a top notch engineer anyway.

One major problem was that, although the environment attracted some technically brilliant people, they tended to be rather quirky. In fact, when I first joined the company, it seemed that the more of a mad scientist you were, the better. Following the engineer in status was the draftsmen, and the Chief Draftsman was a kind of demi God, with a special direct line to God, the MD. The Drawing Office was like a cathedral, with large windows and a high ceiling. When you went there, if you got past the DO secretary that is, you spoke in hushed tones.

Gradually more support departments were created and at one point the company reached an ideal balance between, management, support and engineering. The company was still product oriented and you only had to mention that the programme was being held up to get an instant corrective response. In those days the management did management and the support departments did… support.

But, by stealth, the management and support groups grew into self-serving entities in their own right. The first group to lose their status was the DO. This was caused by a paradyne shift in technology and the introduction of CAD.

Soon new departments/groups sprang up; the IT department was one of the biggest and most essential with the development of computers. But there was also marketing, business development, buying office, safety, security, and the Personnel Department morphed into Human Factors and expanded greatly- they always seemed to have the best offices and cars too. Also new management techniques were introduced on a regular basis, bringing with them an ever increasing burden of procedures and paper work.

In the end it would have been possible to remove all the projects and coal- face staff and the whole merry-go-round would have continued as if nothing had happened. Then the management started closing departments they decided were not profitable: PCB manufacture, laser lab, machine shop, plating shop, paint shop and so on. The plan was that all that would be done by outside sub-contract. Meanwhile the other departments grew in number and size. In the end it was found to be much cheaper to sub contract the whole issue, so the company became a specification writing and sub contract management organization. It also became, about 70%, a software house.

The only trouble was that with all the overheads and the time taken to organize sub-contractors our proposals took linger and became more expensive to produce. Also our bottom line cost was becoming less and less competitive and shortly after I left they managed themselves up their own … and closed the site- it is now a waste land awaiting development into a housing estate, but the drawing office still stands as if hanging on to its former ethereal glory.

spec

I didn't get the poor guy in trouble.

He diagnosed the AC problem as being a bad air to water heat pump in the ceiling. So, he gets the manpower, etc and swaps it out for a new one. A lot of manpower.

BUT.....It still doesn't work. Well, since we're big enough we have our own HVAC department. Now, he asked for my help, but I'm unable to help him visibly (Boss has a mind your own business attitude). it was also one of his units that didn't have AC for a LONG TIME.

So, I looked at the prints clandestinely and we met to troubleshoot. He made a few tests under my direction and i said, you have a shorted and or open thermostat wire, replace it. My job was done.

I have a sense of accomplishment, but I can't tell anyone and in general he's a nice guy. Reality was, we had some renovations and the original t-stat wire was pulled through some metal studs making a mess out of it, We didn't need the new heat pump. We did have temporary AC units until it was fixed. It was an area that had 100% make up air. There was condensation everywhere.

If I could have helped earlier in the game, everyone would have been happier. I swear, we spent about 10 minutes together and I SPENT some time reading outside of work time. He reached out to me.

That's more of a job of a "consultant".

Ohh. The engineers that designed the building did not allow for the correct condensate drain pitch. That problem never got fixed 100%.

One of the guys I met early on was in technical admin. He had half his face blown away when an oxygen bottle went up at a previous company. He was more classic educated rather than technical but had a lot of basic common sense and, as a lad, I used to take in what he said. One day he said, "You know you engineers just won't leave be- you are always trying to improve things." I didn't pay much attention to this at the time, but I came to realise that he was right, as far as I was concerned anyway. Could this be another trait of engineering types?

KeepItSimpleStupid said:

I didn't get the poor guy in trouble.

He diagnosed the AC problem as being a bad air to water heat pump in the ceiling. So, he gets the manpower, etc and swaps it out for a new one. A lot of manpower.

BUT.....It still doesn't work. Well, since we're big enough we have our own HVAC department. Now, he asked for my help, but I'm unable to help him visibly (Boss has a mind your own business attitude). it was also one of his units that didn't have AC for a LONG TIME.

So, I looked at the prints clandestinely and we met to troubleshoot. He made a few tests under my direction and i said, you have a shorted and or open thermostat wire, replace it. My job was done.

I have a sense of accomplishment, but I can't tell anyone and in general he's a nice guy. Reality was, we had some renovations and the original t-stat wire was pulled through some metal studs making a mess out of it, We didn't need the new heat pump. We did have temporary AC units until it was fixed. It was an area that had 100% make up air. There was condensation everywhere.

If I could have helped earlier in the game, everyone would have been happier. I swear, we spent about 10 minutes together and I SPENT some time reading outside of work time. He reached out to me.

That's more of a job of a "consultant".

Ohh. The engineers that designed the building did not allow for the correct condensate drain pitch. That problem never got fixed 100%.

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Keep,

One thing I was wondering about- did you ever get any recognition for you work?

Once upon a time … 1970 is near enough . The company I worked for produced several large types of accounting machines, masses of electro mechanical stuff, weighed a ton, made the lights flicker when switched on !. one bench engineer's main job was to test the huge and very expensive 72 wire cables ( 1” diameter, several feet long ) for breaks , they connected main machine to punch tape ( and other peripherals ) great design ! The tape unit was in a drawer so moved in / out for access, and also stressed these cables, breaks would give intermittent faults, FE would change cables ( 2 or 3 at a time) “ just in case”. The “faulty” cables were tested for breaks on an AVO meter, pin to pin end to end while being “waggled” then on to next pins etc. Newby me, suggested and made a pair of connectors (Cinch ?) that turned the cable into a coil... leaving two wires link up and test, saved hours of testing to prove any breaks. Although the bench guy was not to happy, as he now had to do proper work. Branch manager did not understand, the technical supervisor ignored my 'invention' but later suggested it in a bulletin. ( if I had been a bit more savy I should have documented it and sent it to the factory..) But I just got on enjoying myself, poking my nose into stuff !

EE companies need an Ombudsman ...

Hi,

Left handed? How did that get in there?
Body parts are often mistaken as indicators of other individuals properties.

MrAl said:

Hi,

Left handed? How did that get in there?
Body parts are often mistaken as indicators of other individuals properties.

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Are you left handed MrAl?

granddad said:

Once upon a time … 1970 is near enough . The company I worked for produced several large types of accounting machines, masses of electro mechanical stuff, weighed a ton, made the lights flicker when switched on !. one bench engineer's main job was to test the huge and very expensive 72 wire cables ( 1” diameter, several feet long ) for breaks , they connected main machine to punch tape ( and other peripherals ) great design ! The tape unit was in a drawer so moved in / out for access, and also stressed these cables, breaks would give intermittent faults, FE would change cables ( 2 or 3 at a time) “ just in case”. The “faulty” cables were tested for breaks on an AVO meter, pin to pin end to end while being “waggled” then on to next pins etc. Newby me, suggested and made a pair of connectors (Cinch ?) that turned the cable into a coil... leaving two wires link up and test, saved hours of testing to prove any breaks. Although the bench guy was not to happy, as he now had to do proper work. Branch manager did not understand, the technical supervisor ignored my 'invention' but later suggested it in a bulletin. ( if I had been a bit more savy I should have documented it and sent it to the factory..) But I just got on enjoying myself, poking my nose into stuff !

EE companies need an Ombudsman ...

Click to expand...

When I was a newbee test engineer in our company, I had almost the same thing with an approx 62 circular connector to cable to 62 way connector. According to the test spec the test procedure was to check each pin for continuity and then check each pin for shorts to the other 61 pins by hand using an Avo meter. We had a procedure to feedback observations to engineering suggesting improvement and to point out errors. So I filled out one of the forms suggesting the use of a test jig on the departments automatic test equipment. Instead of taking about an hour and being error prone the test would have taken around 1 minute and been much more thorough. My suggestion was rejected by the engineer without reason. When I went to see him about it, he said that he had rejected it because I had thought of it and not him- end of discussion.

spec said:

Are you left handed MrAl?

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Hi,

That's completely irrelevant, and that's my whole point.

Just wondering why you would suggest that has any correlation here?

Left brained would make some sense.

MrAl said:

Hi,

That's completely irrelevant, and that's my whole point.

Just wondering why you would suggest that has any correlation here?

Left brained would make some sense.

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You haven't answered my question.

You know how you form images of people in your mind- well I would love to meet the active ETO members sometime, just to find out what they are really like. I have seen pictures of some members and they look quite different to what I imagined. and I bet their characters are quite different too.