Looking for a sheet that resists

[tcmtech]

At this point the computer programing to make this work would be better spent on a GUI system that uses a fully integrated LCD touch screen and you just drag the piece icons around digitally.

Since a computer is already involved in the game and needs to know where every piece is at on a map just move the pieces to the virtual world and be done with it!

The computer already has a virtual map of the game so it can do what ever it is doing anyway.

Theres a reason the computer games at the arcade centers dont use movable pieces and its not just because kids would take them!

 

[crashsite]

An Old Sew and Sew

At this point the computer programing to make this work would be better spent on a GUI system...

That's certainly the "modern" thinking. But, it can come with problems. If the desire is to learn some electronics, there's not much sense in writing GUI code for a processor. It's just a completely different field of interest.

Sure, I could dress myself in the morning by keeping a bolt of cloth and sewing acoutrements nearby and ginning up a new wardrobe each day but, if I'm just not into sewing, so I'll do the seemingly unrelated tasks which may include things like driving and shopping and dealing with cash and credit cards in order to attire myself.

I can't speak for others who may find the programming more fun than the electronics.

 

[tcmtech]

That's certainly the "modern" thinking. But, it can come with problems. If the desire is to learn some electronics, there's not much sense in writing GUI code for a processor. It's just a completely different field of interest.

Sure, I could dress myself in the morning by keeping a bolt of cloth and sewing acoutrements nearby and ginning up a new wardrobe each day but, if I'm just not into sewing, so I'll do the seemingly unrelated tasks which may include things like driving and shopping and dealing with cash and credit cards in order to attire myself.

WTF? You lost me on that one. Your trying to sew a mechanical interface. Save the time and do what your saying in you example go and do the seemingly unrelated stuff like buying pre made touch sensor systems with your credit card and be done with it.

The only part I got was not doing programming. YOU already have to do programing to get the computer to recognize and understand what and where for this map concept anyway.

I take this as saying I want to learn welding and fabrication so I am going to build an expensive luxury car but in order to save on rubber since I cant weld to that I am going to build it as a single wheel design.
Its not that it cant be done or work but the practicality and design of it will take loads more control systems, hardware, and design cost than just adding the three more tires! (two more for you UK fellas!)

I dont care for programing and find any reasonable way to avoid computer or micro controller implementation when I can. But some times its just the most practical solution to a complex control problem. Like it or not!

SO what part does the processor play in this game? If its keeping track of pieces there has to be a reason why?


To me this sounds like unrealistic dream that is way over your head due to lack of Knowledge of practical application electronics and computer control/interface systems.

If you want to learn electronics start small and work up. Dont start with attempting a full on computer main board when you apparently dont know how basic human machine interface logic works yet.

 

[crashsite]

Well...that's a LOT more than I had intended to say...

WTF? You lost me on that one.

I can't really disagree with you that computers do indeed make a lot of stuff that was traditionally done with electronic circuits, cheaper and more practical. And, for a lot of people, more enjoyable.

But, there is something satisfying about looking at a real live opponent sitting across the other side of a chess board and the tactile feel of the material and shape of the men. Even turning them into photo-realistic medieval warriors and pretending to pick them up and move them with a finger on a screen just isn't the same. Even the wii concept is a poor second best to actually doing most of the simulations people do with the wii (although admittedly, some of the actions that simply have no real-life counterpart are better because...well, because they just can't be done any other way).

I don't know what game was envisioned for the resistive sheet project or how needed a processor would be to accomplish it but, there have been a lot of electronic games that preceed the advent of the microchip. How about, Operation? Something as simple as a magnet that would pick out "organs" but, without touching the sides of the "incision" lest making a simple electrical contact would light a light or buzz a buzzer? Even today, it's still a fairly popular game in it's original 1960s form.

I, myself, don't have anything against modernizing and simplifying with a processor of some sort but, I do balk at learning a high level language and then compiling it to the processor's native lingo. I tend to deal with the processor in a simpler, more direct way, through it's instruction set. Fortunately, I'm not into sophisticated gaming systems and programming automated Preditor strikes in Iraq and Afghanistan or NASA missions, etc.

For people who enjoy the programming aspects of the business, I say, "great". For those (like myself) who prefer the electronics circuitry aspects of the business I also say, "great". For those few who can actually do both (and, trust me, for every 1000 who talk about it, I'd guess there's less than 1 who can actually successfully do it), I say, "gee, I'm envious".

For this thread, I was most interested in the electro-mechanics of it rather than the pie-in-the-sky promise of how it might all fit into some sophisticated, computerized gaming system. I get a sense that the trivial, ennui details of how to place pieces on a board are of little interest to you but, the big, fancy stuff has caught your fancy. Maybe not but, it just feels that way.

 

[tcmtech]

Actually I am not a gamer. I never cared for games in general. I dont even play board games with my niece!
For me sitting in front of a computer and immersing myself in a virtual reality is dumb. I have a whole world of real reality to interact with.

I am also not a programmer either. My programming skills are PLC type industrial stuff.
What I program is related to making a machine faster, better, easier to operate and more cost effective to run.

I simply thought I would jump in on this thread and pass along what I know about designing basic human interface systems from the practicality point of it nothing more.

If you are one that likes the tactile approach to games this really confuses me as to why you would want a complex interactive computer game board!

I regularly deal with people that want to make unrealistic and unnecessarily complex devices to do simple things off the shelf components are all ready capable of. That was what impression I got from here.

I approach life in a simple way, I like simple. Simple works for me because I am simple. Simple is easy to understand and make work. Simple is not complex!

 

[crashsite]

Simple Is As Simple Does (paraphrasing Forrest Gump)

I approach life in a simple way, I like simple. Simple works for me because I am simple. Simple is easy to understand and make work. Simple is not complex!

I can't disagree with any of that. I always say, it doesn't take a computer or even a PIC to turn on an electrical device. Sometimes a simple SPST switch will do the trick...or even touching two wires together. But, one also has to acknowlege that sometimes it indeed does take not only a computer but, an entire deep-space radio network with relay satellites and huge parabolic dishes and super-cooled LNAs to do the job...like when that electrical device is out beyond the orbit of Neptune.

I, too don't really give a diddley damn about games. While I've seen it played, I've never actually played, Operation and was more interested in the electro-mechanics of it than the game philosophy.

Likewise, with the topic of this thread. Could care less about the "game possibilities" but, appreciated some of the technical details that came out and, who knows, may even find a use for the info some day.

 

[jasonbe]

In addition to being tactile, the game also has an advantageous three dimensional form and may be more accessible than a keyboard or mouse to a group of people. I think that there are boards on the market that convert measurements of electricity into variables that can be used as arguments by programmers. I have one that converts predetermined input to predetermined output signals even by people who do not know C, and C can be used. I do not know of any touch screens on the market that can keep track of players, though I imagine some might be able to locate them. I don’t know how some of these touch screens sense fingers or pens. If they sense them by not by pressure but heat or chemicals, then they might not work for game pieces. Unless I had heated game pieces made from biologically resembling chemicals. Both types of screens are beyond my price range for this project. I need to learn more before I complete this project in the present or another form. I think that an ohm meter would be measuring the resistance offered by graphite. I was hoping for a material that was easier to work with than graphite, but I haven’t been able to find a list of such materials having the form of a sheet. I can’t think of any industries that are interested in knowing the resistance of sheets. Knowing how AC travels through conductive sheets and reacts to the edges of sheets may become useful. I’m wondering if shorting out a wave on the game board with conductors having uniquely spaced diameters on the bottom of game pieces could be used to extrapolate distances. The most advanced form of the game would involve identifying the status of the game pieces from signals sent through the sheet and not directly with cumbersome wires connected to the pieces.

 

[tcmtech]

Optical grid Mapping perhaps?
The board itself is a mathematical pattern grid (those complex dot pattern sheets)so every point has a unique pattern signature. Each game piece looks at the pattern and reports that pattern back to the main processor that figures out where that specific pattern is located and thusly keeps track of each piece by a combination of optical and RF communication.

Perhaps an actively coupled electromagnetic field can power the optical and RF circuits in each game piece?

Think of it as wireless optical mouse technology that looks at a special grid and uses close coupled EMF power instead of a battery in each piece.
All of that technology is basic off the shelf tech now a days.

being mathematical pattern grid mapped the playing board could be huge!
Print the dot pattern in UV or IR reflective ink and it could be laid right over any picture map you can think of and not be seen by human eyes!

(I was thinking about how my wireless optical mouse works when I put the concept all together.)

 

[jasonbe]

Optical grid Mapping perhaps?
The board itself is a mathematical pattern grid (those complex dot pattern sheets)so every point has a unique pattern signature. Each game piece looks at the pattern and reports that pattern back to the main processor that figures out where that specific pattern is located and thusly keeps track of each piece by a combination of optical and RF communication.

Perhaps an actively coupled electromagnetic field can power the optical and RF circuits in each game piece?

Think of it as wireless optical mouse technology that looks at a special grid and uses close coupled EMF power instead of a battery in each piece.
All of that technology is basic off the shelf tech now a days.

being mathematical pattern grid mapped the playing board could be huge!
Print the dot pattern in UV or IR reflective ink and it could be laid right over any picture map you can think of and not be seen by human eyes!

(I was thinking about how my wireless optical mouse works when I put the concept all together.)

Sounds interesting. I'd still like to learn how AC travels through sheets and reacts to edges. I'm just as likely to use gesture or iris direction recognition technology to make the game. Then I'd need motors or a three dimensional display to move the pieces.

 

[crashsite]

I can’t think of any industries that are interested in knowing the resistance of sheets.

Trust me, there a LOT of industries that are very interested in the resistance of sheets.

Knowing how AC travels through conductive sheets and reacts to the edges of sheets may become useful. I’m wondering if shorting out a wave on the game board with conductors having uniquely spaced diameters on the bottom of game pieces could be used to extrapolate distances.

This is getting a bit far-afield but, a common way that "touch screens" used to work didn't involve touching the screen at all. There was a row of infared LEDs along the frame of the screen on two sides beamed over the screen at photodiodes on the other sides. When you "touched" the screen, you really just broke the beam and that's what was detected. I'm not sure how it's done these days.

An even more essoteric solution might be a form of TDR (time domain reflectometer). The TDR is commonly used in things like aircraft and network maintenance for locating discontinuities in cabling. Esoteric because the TDR shoots an extremely short (picoseconds) pulse down the wire and then senses the reflections that occur due to variations in the line impedance. It's pretty common concepts for RF folks although the TDR itself is a bit more than most RF guys have ever used. There's probably a way to digitally map a conductive sheet and then "see" the discontinuities from putting game pieces on it even if they just have something like a piece of metal on the bottom. By sizing or shaping the metal you should be able to (in theory, anyway) sense the different pieces.

i'm not sure but, I think those RFI chips they use for tracking shipments may be passive. Also, those anti-shoplifting devices you often find glued on things are nothing but a strip of metal that reacts to a microwave signal (sort of similar to the old grid dip meter).

It's already becoming practical to put true radar on the bumper of luxury cars (radar on a microchip) that will sense down to a few feet and, that resolution is sure to come down as chips get even faster.

The upshot is that the technology may already be past the currently thought of methods and new thinking may be in order...

 

[jasonbe]

Trust me, there a LOT of industries that are very interested in the resistance of sheets.



This is getting a bit far-afield but, a common way that "touch screens" used to work didn't involve touching the screen at all. There was a row of infared LEDs along the frame of the screen on two sides beamed over the screen at photodiodes on the other sides. When you "touched" the screen, you really just broke the beam and that's what was detected. I'm not sure how it's done these days.

An even more essoteric solution might be a form of TDR (time domain reflectometer). The TDR is commonly used in things like aircraft and network maintenance for locating discontinuities in cabling. Esoteric because the TDR shoots an extremely short (picoseconds) pulse down the wire and then senses the reflections that occur due to variations in the line impedance. It's pretty common concepts for RF folks although the TDR itself is a bit more than most RF guys have ever used. There's probably a way to digitally map a conductive sheet and then "see" the discontinuities from putting game pieces on it even if they just have something like a piece of metal on the bottom. By sizing or shaping the metal you should be able to (in theory, anyway) sense the different pieces.

i'm not sure but, I think those RFI chips they use for tracking shipments may be passive. Also, those anti-shoplifting devices you often find glued on things are nothing but a strip of metal that reacts to a microwave signal (sort of similar to the old grid dip meter).

It's already becoming practical to put true radar on the bumper of luxury cars (radar on a microchip) that will sense down to a few feet and, that resolution is sure to come down as chips get even faster.

The upshot is that the technology may already be past the currently thought of methods and new thinking may be in order...

I don't forsee myself realistically purchasing or making anything as advanced as the solution that you are proposing. However, as much information that you would provide about specific industries that use - and products that incorporate, sheets having regular changes in resistance comparable to that offered by common variable resistors per foot up to about 15 feet may be really useful. The ideal distance is about 2 or 3 feet. I would want to use this information to locate tables that might help me learn more about these materials. I'm still not sure if and how AC waves might bounce off the edge of these sheets making signals more difficult to interpret.

 

[crashsite]

Try it...Maybe you'll like it...

I'm still not sure if and how AC waves might bounce off the edge of these sheets making signals more difficult to interpret.

Most industrial applications that would be interested in the nature of the resistance of sheet material would NOT be interested in the gaming aspects. Typically, they might be developing things like radar absortptive paints and coverings for aircraft, ships, trucks, tanks, etc. or anti-static applications where the resistance would bleed off charges or even something like Xerox machine or laser printer photosensitive belts and drums (which accept and then bleed off charges during the printing cycle), etc. etc. There are many examples of what's being done and may be of interest to companies in the future.

Regarding AC. There's AC and then there's AC. If you are thinking of AC such as comes out of the wall, my recollection is that a quarter wavelength at 60 Hz is about 1300 miles. Relative to game board dimensions, it's not even seen. Relative to losses in a power distribution grid, it can be significant. Even if you bump an oscillator up to several MHz, the waves are still very long. If you have knowledge of HAM radio, that's what all that 40 meter and 10 meter stuff they keep talking about is all about. Wavelengths at the different HAM band frequencies.

If you envision using AC at microwave frequencies, to get wavelengths down to board dimensions, then there's a whole 'nother field of electronics you need to bone up on before you even begin your playing board design.

People have actually figured out the things you are trying to do and believe me they've tried the kinds of stuff you are thinking about. For example, the digitizing tablet "knows" where the pen is on the surface.

Remember that I said that any attempt to use the resistive surface concept as a game board surface is pretty much doomed? Well, let me reiterate it here. There's just too many things that can go wrong. But, as long as you are merely theorizing about how it works, it can seem right. If you take the advice to do some experimenting, you'll find out soon enough some of the problems. And the more you'll experiment, the more problems you'll find.

It seems like you are mostly just interested in the dream of a gaming system (of some sort) and the practical and getting your hands dirty side of the project don't appeal to you. So far you've shown no interest in the underlying electronics or even the technology of the resistive material or in doing any of the R&D work that would give you some direct experience with it. To be quite honest, I'm not quite sure what you want or your expectations of doing whatever it is you want to do with it is.

 

[killivolt]

I know your after resistive applications so I'm far off on this but, I couldn't resist putting in hear.

DTMF Proximity Detector

One of my co-workers sent me this too !

YouTube - Johnny Lee: Wii Remote hacks

I was interested in the sensors and such. I want to build one of these.

Good luck !


kv

 

[crashsite]

Staying Modern

One of my co-workers sent me this too !

YouTube - Johnny Lee: Wii Remote hacks

I was interested in the sensors and such. I want to build one of these.

Wheeeeeeee! Or should I be all "cool" and "hep to the jive" and say, "Wiiiiiiii"?

 

[killivolt]

Wheeeeeeee! Or should I be all "cool" and "hep to the jive" and say, "Wiiiiiiii"?

I've never understood gaming I don't play them either I'm so disinterested in this thread that I didn't even read the whole thing.

I don't have a wii nor will I ever buy one. Although I wouldn't mind someone building a Multi Million dollar gaming system and me exploiting it for my purposes.

We do have a system at work for the classrooms. I just thought it might be interesting since we do have one. Build it I say. Then let the software developers in training here at the University have a go at it. It might just prove interesting.

Gimme a break, Minority Report and 3 D hologram interaction is far from Gaming.

I'm interested in things that are useful in other way's. Let someone else pay the research money to develop and you benefit by expanding it's boundary's.

kv

 

[tcmtech]

I almost got into computer games and the earlier TV versions once. It was getting interesting but then they changed the interaction format from sit on my butt in front of a monitor and eat Cheeto's to get off my butt and get exercise in front of a monitor.

They ruined the whole concept behind gaming for me!
Never looked back since.

Cheeto's any one? crunch crunch crunch mmmm . Doh... my heart! jjjjaaaakk

 

[crashsite]

Wii the People...

I've never understood gaming I don't play them either I'm so disinterested in this thread that I didn't even read the whole thing.

I don't have a wii nor will I ever buy one. Although I wouldn't mind someone building a Multi Million dollar gaming system and me exploiting it for my purposes.

The gaming aspect of this thread is of no interest to me but, I was hoping that there would be some new technical ideas to glean from some of the posts and, there were a few.

But, I must confess that the wii does have some unintended comedic possibilities that have been missing from other gaming formats. There was a SNL skit on TV a couple of months ago where the guys were down in the basement playing a game and the more exciting the game became got, the more active the wii motions...resulting in a masturbatory effect. That led to what has to be a classic punch line when one of the guy's wives comes down and asked what's going on ant he answer was, "we're down here playing with our wiis"...

Actually, I do have an old Atari Pong board (stamped, 1974) that I was thinking about maybe tring to sell on Ebay. All 74XX logic and 555 timers.

 

[crashsite]

Pointless Exercises

I almost got into computer games and the earlier TV versions once. It was getting interesting but then they changed the interaction format from sit on my butt in front of a monitor and eat Cheeto's to get off my butt and get exercise in front of a monitor.

Kind of like the stationary exercise equipment. It's always seemed a bit pointless to me to ride an exercise bike or walk on a treadmill when you can just as easily get on a real bike or go out and walk somewhere and actually...GO somewhere.

Geez, next thing you know, someone will be coming up with the idea of grabbing onto a rope and being pulled along behind a boat rather than just going out and swimming.......

 

[killivolt]

Kind of like the stationary exercise equipment. It's always seemed a bit pointless to me to ride an exercise bike or walk on a treadmill when you can just as easily get on a real bike or go out and walk somewhere and actually...GO somewhere.

Geez, next thing you know, someone will be coming up with the idea of grabbing onto a rope and being pulled along behind a boat rather than just going out and swimming.......

If you want humor. I got video of 2 people on wake boards trying to 360 flip off the same wake at the same time. ::crunch-ouch::

Afterward I was told that one person pointed to the other as if to say go ahead you first. Meanwhile the second person to polite pointed back to say No: you first. Of course after a pause the first person decided to go...... you guessed then second thought the same thing.

Both in a flip off the wake straight into one another. ::wham::

Gotta love it. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be polite.

Never mix beer and water sports.

kv

 

[tcmtech]

Kind of like the stationary exercise equipment. It's always seemed a bit pointless to me to ride an exercise bike or walk on a treadmill when you can just as easily get on a real bike or go out and walk somewhere and actually...GO somewhere.

Geez, next thing you know, someone will be coming up with the idea of grabbing onto a rope and being pulled along behind a boat rather than just going out and swimming.......

I hear ya!

The funniest exercise conversations I have and regularly do have is about going to the gym to work out.

I am big and well built and get asked what gym I go to by city folks several times a year. Everyone of them says they dont like paying for the gym they go to and would like to switch to a better one.
They see me and assume I apparently go to one.
I always tell them I have never gone to one.
Then I get asked how I stay in solid shape with out going to one.
I tell them its just a side effect of the type of work I do.
Then I tell them if they want to get in shape and not pay come and work with me for a few hours every day for a week.
I will even pay them for getting in shape sinse their work would help me out most times.
Not one ever shows up.