Moon power, free electricity

I don't really see the whole point of it myself.

We have a whole planet that's flooded with cheap and easy access plus above all controllable energy all around us in quantities that we couldn't begin to use up even with the most insanely inefficient operating practices we could ever devise.

Plus on top of it with much of them when properly and strategically implemented the act of tapping into them can and does provides countless other advantages to us beyond just the raw energy production.

tcmtech said:

I don't really see the whole point of it myself.

We have a whole planet that's flooded with cheap and easy access plus above all controllable energy all around us in quantities that we couldn't begin to use up even with the most insanely inefficient operating practices we could ever devise.

Plus on top of it with much of them when properly and strategically implemented the act of tapping into them can and does provides countless other advantages to us beyond just the raw energy production.

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So this is where you hang out Donald! Man thought you be busy winning! When does that bit start by the way?

Little Ghostman said:

So this is where you hang out Donald! Man thought you be busy winning! When does that bit start by the way?

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What?

tcmtech said:

What?

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You sounded a bit like someone there who thinks oil is the answer .

Actually I wasn't talking about oil.

I was referring to how insanely large the natural planetary energy budget is compared to what us humans are capable of doing.

The answer is the answer. If propane is plentiful some will convert some of their vehicles to propane.

If flowing water, you can have hydro power plants.

TCM states there is a mix of solutions.

Why does France have such a high percentage of nuclear power?

Why do Nimbys come out in force when nuclear power is proposed in the U.S.?

The mix is there. Find one cheaper and the reliability equals oil and you will see a mass conversion.

Till then, you will have oil.

JoeJester said:

The answer is the answer. If propane is plentiful some will convert some of their vehicles to propane.

If flowing water, you can have hydro power plants.

TCM states there is a mix of solutions.

Why does France have such a high percentage of nuclear power?

Why do Nimbys come out in force when nuclear power is proposed in the U.S.?

The mix is there. Find one cheaper and the reliability equals oil and you will see a mass conversion.

Till then, you will have oil.

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Then the oil runs out, no big deal we have other forms of fuel! EXCEPT what about certain plastics etc that are made from oil?? Why waste oil as a fuel when its so finite, would make more sense to save it and use for the things that require it and dont have alternatives (like some plastics).

But nah thats ok, my kids and their kids and maybe even their kids, will be ok.............So thats alright then! everyone else can goto hell after that .

But wait.........We will have solved the problem by then! Silly me, of course we will have found a solution, no point waiting until we actually have one. Might as well use it all now!

Why is this thread still running????? You are all dafter than I am!!!

Ian Rogers said:

Why is this thread still running????? You are all dafter than I am!!!

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The moonies made us do it

JoeJester said:

The answer is the answer. If propane is plentiful some will convert some of their vehicles to propane.

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That's what I have been primarily running my pickups on for over a decade now. It's the cheapest most long term cost effective way to get their cost per mile down to a manageable point.

Around here propane is on average 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of gasoline so my cost per mile equivalent in fuel efficiency terms is like having a 8000+# Ford F250 Super duty pickup that gets 20 - 30 MPG!

Little Ghostman said:

Then the oil runs out, no big deal we have other forms of fuel! EXCEPT what about certain plastics etc that are made from oil?? Why waste oil as a fuel when its so finite, would make more sense to save it and use for the things that require it and dont have alternatives (like some plastics).

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But hydrocarbon fuels and plastics won't run out because they can be made from any sources of carbon and hydrogen. Presently the alternative sources just cost more to use because the manufacturing industry is setup to use crude oil as their primary base input stock.

Little Ghostman said:

But wait.........We will have solved the problem by then! Silly me, of course we will have found a solution, no point waiting until we actually have one. Might as well use it all now!

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We have alternative solution in play now that are slowly gaining ground. Granted They may take another century or more toe reach their peak cost effectiveness but they will get there in time. Just look at how far large scale wind and solar power have came in 30 years. 30 years ago they were sitting with RE providing less than 10% of the world's power now RE has topped 20% and will overtake 25% in the next few years, with no signs of slowing down, even though in that ~30 years the world has doubled its overall power consumption.

Wind farms are not really green energy, despite looking after a couple of them, I dont like them at all. Where I live had fantastic views, now all you see is literally 100's of turbines, mostly not doing much!

I better drop the rest of my views.......No point going into forbidden areas .

Little Ghostman said:

Wind farms are not really green energy, despite looking after a couple of them, I dont like them at all. Where I live had fantastic views, now all you see is literally 100's of turbines, mostly not doing much!

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Political wrangling to get them put in the wrong locations where they don't work and are or were artificially supported by tax dollars to keep them there is not a fair measurement of the overall value and effectiveness of any power source AE/RE or other.

Where I live wind farms are not only cost effective they have proven themselves not only well worth the costs involved in their construction, installation, upkeep and have proven highly profitable too. We have about 100 units within line of sight of my place as well that rarely stop turning and when they do it's typically for high wind days (too windy for safe operation) not calm ones.

No idea about there, but here there is a tariff paid per unit for wind power. Without this tarrif that domestic electric users subsidise, wind power dosnt stack up. Then you have the carbon foot print of making them etc etc etc, I might get my lazy fingers typing later. I will dig you out some papers written that lead to wind power feed in tariffs being dropped here. I live in the Galloway Hills, probably one the best locations for wind farms. Its destroyed the view and we might loose our dark sky park status because of them.

I am also a big fan of Bats and a member of the British Bat association, wind power has had an adverse effect on bat populations. As well as insects etc..... Our community has suffered because until the end of last year we had alot of tourists, now people keep driving without stopping. No one wants to Visit Scotland to look at wind farms, funny enough though plenty did want to stay and look at the hills.

Wind power is also unreliable, unless you use batteries, but that hardly makes them green does it.

That's the difference in locations and politics. Just because it doesn't work there and you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work here and I don't like it. either.

As far s the environmental concerns behind their construction I could careless. To much of the concerns are more overblown hype and political special interest group spun agendas than truth.

tcmtech said:

That's the difference in locations and politics. Just because it doesn't work there and you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work here and I don't like it. either.

As far s the environmental concerns behind their construction I could careless. To much of the concerns are more overblown hype and political special interest group spun agendas than truth.

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Look up QR5 wind turbine, these are the **** our local primary school purchased. I now have them in bits, they cost £45,000 for 3 of them and each was rated at 5.6KW when purchased.
The ones at the school sat on 30 meter steel towers, the scho0l was also sat on a hill. Because of the design and the way the electric brake worked, they cost more to run than they produced! But the feed in tariff made a small difference.

Every Kw of juice they made gave the school 40p. The problem is/was they made around £3 a month net profit! The feed in is for 20 years.............Never going to payback what they cost! Actually for the QR5 a university report was done on them, which is why the local council had them removed.

That aside, factor in how much electric goes into making them, how many miles for delivery (800 round trip for the lorry), all the miles taken for each of the components and you get a massive carbon foot print. that isnt political, that is just a fact, the concrete base alone has a bigger carbon foot print than the turbines will ever have replaced. You have to get way up in the 2 Mw range to even start to make a business case for them.

If the Government hadnt of introduced the mad feed in payment, you would not have many wind Turbines in The UK, simply because they dont make enough juice to cover what they cost to make and install. This isnt spun agendas, I looked after these things and I saw the meter readings. I also saw them turning alot, so I assumed they made alot of electric........... Then I looked after them, I discovered they have a Linux pc inside on 24/7 and a mad system of speed control, they have a very narrow band of operating speed. When the wind goes over 10Ms the controller kicks in and slows them down. The controller is a ABB motor speed controller designed for conveyor systems! So even when generating they used alot of the power just to control and run themselves.

I will take some pics out the back of my house tomorrow. The view was stunning as you will see, look at the pics though. It makes them looked photo shopped because there is literally hundreds of HUGE turbines now. So here is an idea............

How about places like Vegas, which lets face it is just a playground, swap the 100W bulbs for LEDS? Lets think about saving some electric, then just maybe we wont have to ruin the landscape and country side as much as we are doing.

Alot of people can afford to leave a 100W light on in a room, even when no one is in that room. But how about we turn the light off and save the electric . What is so wrong and offensive about wanting to not waste energy? Show any scientific or business study that shows wind turbines produce more electric than it takes to make them and set them up. For off griders in colder climates they may make sense, I have no issue with that. But as a means of alternative green energy they are ****. So by all means use them, but its wrong to call them green energy or environmentally friendly.

And lets not forget the post office, hotel,shop,bank and 3 caravan parks that have closed in the last three years around here. The drop off was sudden and coincided with 140 new turbines being put up in 12 mile radius of my house. So a few people get rich off the feed in tariff and a community gets destroyed, that is the reality of wind power.

What would of made sense up here is hydro, but Hydro cost more initially and originally didnt get a tariff. Scottish electric put the cost per unit up to cover the feed in rate. So everyone who is a customer pays for a few wind farm owners to get rich.

And why should you care about the environment concerns? Isnt you thats going to have to put it right is it . Isnt me, is unlikely to be my kids in the future, but it could well be my grandchildren. That makes it matter to me.

Little Ghostman said:

You have to get way up in the 2 Mw range to even start to make a business case for them.

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And therein lies the difference. Around here the wind farms are all commercial installations where everything is 1.2 - 2+ MW in capacity and a typical wind farm is 150 - 500+MW.

As for the rest of things regarding the environment I am suspecting you are falling for way too much of the media and special interest scare mongering hype.

One Of the biggest problems with environmentalism is way too much of its driving fore is based on false logic and over driven advertizing intended to drive a false premise into our world cultures beliefs system util its collectively thought to be real and true even if it has nothing to do with any real eor true other than to make some big corporations, special interests groups or government agencies more money and give them more control over us.

If you don't already know about this guy I suggest you take some time and watch his videos. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=adam+ruins+everything+full+episodes

They're both funny and educational but above all they reveal some pretty scary realities behind what almost all of us think is real and true yet are largely nothing more than long playing corporate, special interests and big government greed based shell games and scams all done to make money and gain more control over the common persons own ignorance and biased belief systems of the world around them.

I know you're smarter than the majority of people and if you're truly open minded to considering things differntly than you believe them to be after you watch his shows you will have a very hard time convincing yourself that much of the big environmental pushes aren't using the exact same tactics to push questionable agendas down our throats to make more of their questionable agendas part of our cultural belief systems for their gains and not ours even if they don't carry a fraction of the validity and justifications they claim to have.

I'm not against properly rational an ideologically carried out environmental protection. I nave have been but I am 100% against BS excuse based special interest driven brainwashing to pass off their less than noble greed driven wants as necessary and justified actions that don't actually have any validity whatsoever.

Your comment of,

Little Ghostman said:

And why should you care about the environment concerns? Isnt you thats going to have to put it right is it . Isnt me, is unlikely to be my kids in the future, but it could well be my grandchildren. That makes it matter to me.

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is exactly their calling card they want you take to be your own life mantra. You could have just as well posted a picture of a polar bear and a penguin embraced in a hug while floating away from the world on a melting iceberg.

LG,

On my way to Vegas, I saw a lot of wind farms. There was one west of Amarillo, TX that ran for 10 miles. Vegas get's it power from the hydroelectric plant at the Hoover Dam.

I saw wind farms in central Oklahoma on my drive north on I-35

I saw wind farms west of Weatherford TX

Wind farms are contributing to the mix.

What would have happened if your school was told to cut themselves from the grid since you now have wind power. Classes would have become real interesting, real fast.

Don't forget, diesel cars became popular when the price of petrol went through the roof. Now, diesel is about the same price as petrol, and in some cases higher. The consumers will opt for the least expensive option.

Exactly!

As with most everything the what, where and how to what extent defines somethings viability and impact for both good and or bad.

Everything has a trade off in some way with everything around it. Nothing will ever be 100% perfect everywhere every time for everything but many solutions once developed to maturity tend to have the capacity to blend in very well with their environments.

Thefar greater problem is if and when something has politics and special interests groups ('Save the whatevers', 'If only one whatever is saved' and ' It's for your children, grandchildren and more so pay us now' type groups rarely have beign goals and intentions) behind them for any reason.

Proper impartial supply and demand based development always finds the most realistic and practical application and implementation strategies for anything.

I will reply properly later, my main point however is the waste of power. Vegas may get it from hydro etc, but that isnt a valid reason to waste energy. I am against most forms of waste, yes I am open minded and I will watch the videos. I didnt get a chance to do pics today, so will respond properly when I post them.

Environmental wise I am on my own, I subscribe to no one school of thought. I read scientific papers and reports and use my own experiences of what I see etc, I am not a sheepple type. The negatives outweigh the pluses in just about all wind farms I know of in my county. In my community the impact has been massive, and when you discover that the wind farms are not even truly green energy it does make you furious.

Being a designated dark sky park is a big deal. We are something like the only one in Europe (I cant remember but will look it up), slowly that has changed and we are near to the point of loosing that status. I am all for hydro, but mainly I have gone from very pro wind to very pro against, all based on my own observations and experiences with it.

Vegas is a lot more digital these days. I've only been to two casinos there ... To play in a pool tournament ... And the they are a business, cutting expenses where they can.