Obama-Care, dead?

[smanches]

That's the only real issue I have with it too, is forcing the money into private hands. Just feeding the big greed pot which is what is causing all this mess to begin with.

 

[Hero999]

That sounds good in theory.
In reality there will be no money in the pot.
When Social Security was founded it was supposed to work the same way.
In reality, the politicians saw this huge chunk of money, and drained it off to balance the budget.
This went on for decades.
Now they are saying that there is no money for the young people and the fund will run out before they get old enough to draw from it.
Anytime there is a huge chunk of money, the politicians will figure a way to grab it for something else.

That's why it needs to be run by an independent body in a fully transparent manner - the accounts should be published so everyone knows how much was spent and where.

 

[HarveyH42]

I wonder if there is going to be some sort of salary and compensation controls for the insurance companies. Little concerned that the big guys will give themselves huge bonuses and raises, while at the same time raising premiums rates, or crying for bail-out bucks. Kind of like the bail-out money last year, for the banks (which are very much involved with insurance companies). The government should have the power to force the people into feeding the profits of any company, although I would have thought that Cash-4-Clunkers, should have been limited to American manufactured cars, since part of it was to stimulate the economy, and all those billions should have stayed home. Toyota got the biggest share, and the consumers got death-machines and thrill rides.

If they wanted health care reform, it should have focused on doctors and patients. The bulk of the money paid in, should be used for actual treatment. They really should have tested this out on a few states, before making it nation-wide. People really opposed to it, could move to another state, and those who really want it, could move to one of the trial states. Washington D.C. should have been top of the list.

Anybody have a quick link to the final, signed Bills? I looked a little, but kept getting discussions and propaganda sites. Dial-up internet is a real bummer these days.

 

[Hero999]

If they wanted health care reform, it should have focused on doctors and patients. The bulk of the money paid in, should be used for actual treatment.

I agree with that.

The problem is, in order for that to happen, the insurance companies would have to be bypassed and the government doesn't have the power to do that because the insurance companies are too powerful.

They really should have tested this out on a few states, before making it nation-wide. People really opposed to it, could move to another state, and those who really want it, could move to one of the trial states. Washington D.C. should have been top of the list.

Sounds good in theory but every state is different so will give different results.

Anybody have a quick link to the final, signed Bills? I looked a little, but kept getting discussions and propaganda sites.

No, I haven't read the whole bill but I watched Obama's healthcare speech on BBC last year.

I can't see myself reading the whole thing but I get the general idea and don't think it goes far enough but I know it's as much as he can do.

Dial-up internet is a real bummer these days.

You're on dialup!

That's really bad!

I remember the days when I had to leave the PC overnight to download the latest version of OpenOffice, now it takes a couple of minutes.

 

[HarveyH42]

Here is a scan of the most recent update my employers sent out, concerning Obama-Care. Basically, we are being told that we are going to be paying more for less. We can also expect a few other cost saving changes to offset some of the extra burden to the company. They don't usually send out letters, and only when some thing major is going to effect us. They don't want us to panic, or get upset when bad things come down (lay-offs). We employ about 11,000 people nation-wide, about 3,000 less than a year ago. Guess this Fall, there will be a few more to join the 20 million Americans without Health Insurance, which of course will mean higher costs for those with jobs, and buying insurance... Hope someone in the capital catch this trend, and fix it.

 

[HarveyH42]

Saw this in the national news, figured I'd share...

Woman Received Lungs Of A 30-Year Smoker
Family Of Cystic Fibrosis Patient Lodges Complaint
Cigarette withn ash

Posted: 5:35 am EDT June 15, 2010Updated: 10:02 am EDT June 15, 2010
LONDON -- The family of a 28-year-old British woman who unknowingly received a lung transplant from a smoker says she would have been "horrified" and have lodged a complaint.

Cystic fibrosis sufferer Lyndsey Scott in February 2009 received a double lung transplant from a donor who had smoked for three decades. She died in July of pneumonia.

Britain's top transplant official Chris Rudge defended the decision and said patients should be told they are not getting a "brand new" organ. He said on the BBC that "lungs from a smoker can be working perfectly normally."

Scott's family called for patients to be told more information about organ donors before accepting a transplant.

Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Is this where Obama-Care is heading, is this the better health care we can expect? Actually smoker lungs had to better than what was already there, but would have thought them to be in pretty rough shape, and low chance of not being damaged when removed, or stuffed into the rib cage. Seems like a very desperate move on the doctor's part. Does the patient's family get an compensation, or just an 'Oops, sorry for you loss?

 

[Zentron]

I've been baffled by the American health system for as long as I can remember! If someone cannot afford health insurance and they get diagnosed with a life-threatening condition but could be cured with some treatment that would normally be covered by the health insurance, are they just allowed to die?

 

[Sceadwian]

The lungs were healthy or they wouldn't have been allowed to be transplanted, she died of pneumonia after a DOUBLE LUNG TRANSPLANT, no surprise there either. she was probably on enough immune suppressants a strong breath from a person with the sniffles 1000 feet away could have given her pneumonia.

If you think you can get a cure from proper medication you're mistaken, I don't know of any medication which can actually cure anything, inoculations come close, but if you don't get one before the initial infection.. Once you have something you generally don't get rid of it.

 

[HarveyH42]

Really not sure about how our health care system works, have fortunately had little need of it. But, pretty sure that if you go to the emergency room at any hospital, they have to treat you, regardless of insurance, financial, immigration status. Don't think there are any 'guaranteed' treatments or cures, and for some, they come out much worse than when they went in. Everybody responds differently to a doctor's care, and the drugs given. It's our own bodies, that do all the healing and curing, not the doctors, who can only help the process (if you're lucky).

Health insurance doesn't cover everything, usually a long list of exclusions and limitations. Not sure how much that has been changed by Obama-Care, which is mostly a cure for a swollen bank account.

The lungs of a person who has smoked for over 30 years, couldn't possibly be in all the good of shape, unless UK tobacco products aren't as bad as the cancer-sticks sold in America. Unless we Americans have been lied to and 'rear-ended' over the health issues of smoking, with ever increases in taxes, to pay for the higher health cost. Either way, something wrong is going on here. If the lungs were in good condition after 30 years of abuse, then our government lies about the evils of smoking.

Cystic Fibrosis is incurable, the lung transplant would have only lasted a few years (well maybe 10 or so, if lucky), a patch job at best. Organs don't grow on trees, and not everybody's parts are interchangeable. Would guess the better quality goes to those who have a better chances of recovery, terminal cases get what's leftover... Here in America, the wealthy get the top of the list.

 

[3v0]

I have heard rumblings that Canada's health care system is in trouble. Rising cost of treatment and the warranty on baby boomers has run out. More people requiring expensive care.

It seems unless you have a large (young) population of people willing to pay for insurance they seldom use there is no reasonable way to provide health care at a reasonable cost.

An article in the local paper about how little medicare is now paying under Obama-Care pointed out that the super glue used to bond a cut cost $70 and they were paid less then that.

My thinking is why in the world is a tube of super glue worth $70? The only difference between it and the off the shelf variety is it's guaranteed to be sterile. I betting the stuff is sterile by the nature of its ingredients and manufacture. If not it could be irradiated or heated.

 

[Sceadwian]

It depends a lot on the individual Harvey. A friend of mine has smoked for many years and recently has his lungs examined, doctor say they're fit as a fiddle. You can find news articles and references all over the place about people that have lived into their 90s despite leading a lifestyle that's generally speaking unhealthy. It's the exception not the rule though.

 

[Reloadron]

It depends a lot on the individual Harvey. A friend of mine has smoked for many years and recently has his lungs examined, doctor say they're fit as a fiddle. You can find news articles and references all over the place about people that have lived into their 90s despite leading a lifestyle that's generally speaking unhealthy. It's the exception not the rule though.

My mother smoked all of her adult life, as did her father who was a doctor. My grandfather the doctor past at 97 and last week I went down to see my mom and take her out for dinner to celebrate her 91st birthday. Mom did quit smoking at about 80 years old. This weekend I'll run down to Columbus as she wants to come up here to Cleveland for a week and hang with us and hit some of the art museums up here. My dad was never a smoker and past at 77 from of all things cancer of the pancreas so go figure.

I strongly agree here with Sceadwian in that my mom and her dad were exceptions to the rule. There is damn good longevity in my family tree but I don't see it as a license to temp fate. It's a crap shoot and the odds are very much against you if you smoke.

Off topic but what the hell.

Ron

 

[HarveyH42]

UK Doctor Admits He Helped Patients Die
Doctor's License Has Been Revoked
RAPHAEL G. SATTER, Associated Press Writer

Posted: 4:58 pm EDT June 19, 2010Updated: 7:48 pm EDT June 19, 2010
LONDON -- A British doctor who admitted shortening the lives of nearly 20 patients -- including his own son -- may yet face charges, British investigators said Saturday.

Howard Martin, 75, was cleared in 2005 of murdering three patients with fatal doses of pain killer. But he has since had his license revoked and now a dramatic confession to a national newspaper has prompted police and prosecutors to consider reopening the case against him.

Martin, whose videotaped confession was carried Saturday by the Daily Telegraph newspaper, said he had no regrets, claiming he acted out of "Christian compassion" to end the suffering of pain-stricken patients.

"My conscience is clear, I don't have anything to fear," he said in an interview from his home. Describing his decision to end the life of his son, Paul, who was suffering from cancer before his death in May 1988, he said: "What more could I do for him other than make sure he had dignity?"

But Britain's General Medical Council differed, calling Martin's behavior "completely unacceptable" and saying that in some cases there was no proof the patients were suffering.

And while many of the 18 patients he injected had only days to live, at least one patient -- 74-year-old Harry Gittins -- could have recovered from esophageal cancer had Martin not administered 200 milligrams of diamorphine the day before he died.

Martin then lied to the family, telling them that Gittins' cancer had spread, the council ruled.

Martin had been charged with murdering Gittins, along with fellow patients Frank Moss, 59, and 74-year-old Stanley Weldon, whose bodies were exhumed at separate cemeteries, but he was eventually acquitted.

On Saturday Gittins' son said he hoped the case against Martin would be reopened.

A 2005 reform to the English legal system means that the principle that prevents people being tried twice for the same crime, known as "double jeopardy," no longer applies.

Defendants may be tried twice for the same crime if "new and compelling" evidence is brought to bear.

Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Not picking on the UK Health Care system, just stuff that pops up in the news. We've had a few of these doctors and nurses here over the past few years as well. But does kind of make you wonder, just what kind of help to expect from the medical profession these days. Personally, I plan to keep my visits to a minimal, and die naturally when the time comes. Not looking for help either way. Some people will fight for just another minute (realizing the eternity they face downstairs), and others give up, long before their time has come. Obama should really appreciate my donations for health insurance, I'll not use or need.

I can only see this as plan as continuing to cost a lot of money, very little was said or done about the cost of medical service, just the insurance that somebody is going to keep paying for it. With more people insured, there will be more people making use of the current medical providers, higher demand. This usually is a great time to raise prices, least in most types of businesses. There has to be some sort of cap in place, which would also kind of dictate, when to pull the plug. It is possible to keep the body and organs functioning a very long time. Brain-dead organ donors a kept for weeks sometimes. Coma patients for years, even decades. Don't know if there are any limits, or if it's handle purely by machines, or if someone needs to monitor and attend constantly. Which would be more profitable, new patients, or warehousing people who couldn't survive if the plug were ever pulled on them?

 

[tvtech]

Not picking on the UK Health Care system, just stuff that pops up in the news. We've had a few of these doctors and nurses here over the past few years as well. But does kind of make you wonder, just what kind of help to expect from the medical profession these days. Personally, I plan to keep my visits to a minimal, and die naturally when the time comes. Not looking for help either way. Some people will fight for just another minute (realizing the eternity they face downstairs), and others give up, long before their time has come. Obama should really appreciate my donations for health insurance, I'll not use or need.

I can only see this as plan as continuing to cost a lot of money, very little was said or done about the cost of medical service, just the insurance that somebody is going to keep paying for it. With more people insured, there will be more people making use of the current medical providers, higher demand. This usually is a great time to raise prices, least in most types of businesses. There has to be some sort of cap in place, which would also kind of dictate, when to pull the plug. It is possible to keep the body and organs functioning a very long time. Brain-dead organ donors a kept for weeks sometimes. Coma patients for years, even decades. Don't know if there are any limits, or if it's handle purely by machines, or if someone needs to monitor and attend constantly. Which would be more profitable, new patients, or warehousing people who couldn't survive if the plug were ever pulled on them?

I am from South Africa. You ain't seen nothing yet.

The Tax Paying few are supporting an illiterate Mob of stupid people (the masses).

Truly tired of this never ending stuff/story here in Aaaaaafrica. Gotta try and win the Lotto and bail outta here.

Hard work is not enough anymore to get anywhere.....you have to be of the correct skin pigmentation......and white does not count. And BTW I am referring to the correct pigmentation....apparently black is beautiful......

I think not....how long is it going to take the WHOLE WORLD to finally realise that black people are useless...
Lazy comes to mind, absolutely stupid/clueless comes to mind. Stealing comes to mind. Blaming the white man for their failures over and over and over again.

The latest on a Website I visited blamed Africa's failure on not finishing the SWC on "Colonisation from the English....Around 100+ years ago..

White and right is better than being black and back.

Soo tired of sheeple. They are sooo stupid. God help them.

Outta here folks.

Cheers guys

 

[3v0]

In the US the percentage of people with real jobs are declining. The baby boomers are going into retirement and the kids graduating from school are finding decent jobs to be few.

I am not sure about other professionals but the computer types I graduated with are working more and more hours on fixed salaries with no raises. I expect people in other fields are seeing the same thing. Hi Tech sweat factories.

My wife is in the process of acquiring equipment for he business and it seems anything with enough market to be sold is being copied and made in China. Quality varies but the price is so low people buy it even it if is junk.

 

[Sceadwian]

3v0 I think the concept of 'decent' job in the US needs to be rethought. There are too many college graduates that seems to think they'll find a place to work that will throw money at them for minimal effort, not enough blue collar workers. The wages previously paid to many even technically demanding jobs were bloated and the world economy is proving this because other countries can do it cheaper and just as well, which is why for the same skills today you won't get a pittance of what used to be the norm. This is by every way I can measure it a good thing, people need to be taught humility and learn what the term 'hard earned' means again, back when this country was founded that was the norm, today we are becoming a bunch of bloated hangers on. The 'good old days' will never be back, better to realize this now than have high expectations of reality that can't be met in an increasingly competitive connected global world. Having a dream is good, having goals are good, but careful attention to reality and concentration on 'what if' scenarios is nearly unheard of. We're basically minting diplomas right now, the real innovators are only minuscule portion of the population.

 

[3v0]

I am not talking about bumbs or hanger-on's. These are talented people doing good work.

You think flipping burgers at Micky-D's or stocking shelves at Wally world to be a good job ?

The main reason jobs are exiting the US is taxes and not wages or low quality workers.

 

[Sceadwian]

I'm talking about trade skill jobs, machinists, construction work, factor workers etc.. etc.. people that get their elbows dirty to get a job done. I'm not even sure why you would say McD's or Wallmart. Those aren't blue collar jobs, those are temporary jobs with a few management positions that are white collar work. No one makes a career out of McDonalds or Wallmart unless they're not in a position to better themselves outside of the few white collar positions. Even those two companies together aren't a full percentage point of the US job market, so why would you even comment like that? And what do taxes have anything to do with it? The large portion of jobs being shipped overseases are to China and India, and it has nothing to do with taxes, it's the working wage paid to the people that have to do the work.

 

[3v0]

It could be that you have the wrong vantage point to understand what I am trying to say. So allow me to explain.

I am talking about R&D and manufacturing. In a companies that only sell, configure, and repair what a customer needs you will not see the same impact.

Our plant used to do everything from R&D to making the wire. At one time we manufactured our own CRT's. We made semi custom chips in house. Over the years this work was outsourced. When our last production line was about to move to Malaysia the big wigs from corporate held a "coffee talk" to explain the how and why of the move and allowed us to ask questions.

The people on the line were our friends and some engineers had wives that worked it. When asked how much of a wage cut it would take to keep the line in the US we were told that it was taxes rather then wages. Even if our people worked for free there was no way to continue production in the US. To remain competitive we had close the line.

Understand that I worked for a multinational company with branches in many countries around the world. Such companies will locate R&D and production to whatever location provides the best business climate. A huge part of that is taxes.

Much of the R&D work has followed manufacturing to a more hospitable business environment. Parking lots there were once full are nearly empty.

In a way US only companies have it even harder. They can either switch to importing product or close their doors.

 

[Reloadron]

Long way from health care but what the hell.

The way I see this whole outsource thing is simple. A business, any business large or small exist for a single sole purpose and that is to make money. Large businesses that are public traded have a fiduciary responsibility to their share holders to make money. I think we can all agree on that. The name of the game is to make money.

Years ago most manufacturing companies in the US marketed their products in the US. During the late 50s and early 60s a foreign made car was really unusual to see on the roads of the US. Discounting those beetles anyway.

In 1972 I spent considerable time in Japan before my worst ever summer vacation in Vietnam. That was my first time outside the US except visits to Canada and Mexico. Something I noticed right away was on the Japanese market was that anything not made in Japan was dearly expensive. One day I saw a very wealthy Japanese driving a 1964 Plymouth Fury. I questioned a Japanese friend I knew as to why there were not more foreign cars in Japan. He explained the cost factor. The tariff on an American made auto in Japan was 100% so a $3,000 car in 1964 was at least a $6,000 car in Japan. I also noticed that a $20 bottle of Johnny Walker Black label scotch was selling for about $100 USD on the Japanese market. However, a bottle of Suntory (Japanese whiskey) sold for about $10. Go figure huh?

I later attended a seminar at which John Fluke (CEO of Fluke) was a keynote speaker. Fluke prided itself on their AC/DC standards and multimeters, all made in Everette, Washington. He began speaking with a story of how during WW II the US at a cost of tens of thousands of American lives marched into the streets of Tokyo and took the city. He went on to say how all these years later Japan marched into the streets of Detroit and without firing a single shot took the city. Go figure huh?

Thus began the new buzzwords in American business of how to be competitive in a world marketplace. Sounds good and catchy phrase huh? The problem is it is hard to be competitive when you are on a very uneven playing field.

When I got to Cleveland many years ago this place was cooking and I mean literally cooking. Like Pittsburgh this was a steel town feeding Detroit and any city needing steel. During the night the "Flats" home to the steel mills literally glowed with molten steel pouring in ingots. It was a sight I had never seen growing up in NYC. It was incredible to see. There was a downside as the air quality sucked and the smog was right there with LA and NY. So the paint literally was eaten off buildings, so what. The guys working those mills were doing dirty work but it paid well. They had kids and pretty houses in the suburbs with white picket fences.

Then things got ugly when the EPA began setting higher emissions standards for their stacks burning coal from West Virginia so the cost of steel began to increase. To complicate an already bad situation some manufacturers needing steel began importing steel from China. Some called it steel and I called it case hardened peanut butter but none the less it began to pour into the US literally tariff free. Remember about tariffs earlier with the Plymouth Fury in Japan?

Have any of you traveled abroad to China or India or anywhere including Mexican factories just south of our own border? They have no rules, there is no EPA or for that matter an OSHA. Many of their factories are government subsidized or owned. Raw sewage runs through the streets untreated and they have smog I haven't seen in years. There are no labor laws. The sweat shops this country (the US) during the early years of the industrial revolution are alive and well in China. So how do you compete with that? You can't.

Now at 3v0 I can't see where taxes are at the root cause of the problem here. Try as I will I can't see a link between corporate taxes and outsourcing work. I can see profit margin and I can to a lesser extent see greed but I can't see taxes? Unless we look at NAFTA and that if a company has parts made outside the US and imported back into the US there is no tax on the import?

Sceadwian, I really liked what you covered here:

I'm talking about trade skill jobs, machinists, construction work, factor workers etc.. etc.. people that get their elbows dirty to get a job done. I'm not even sure why you would say McD's or Wallmart. Those aren't blue collar jobs, those are temporary jobs with a few management positions that are white collar work. No one makes a career out of McDonalds or Wallmart unless they're not in a position to better themselves outside of the few white collar positions.

My oldest son is 41 and never went to college. He operates a crane on a barge building docks in deep water ports. He gets plenty dirty but earns a damn good living, with nice benefits, sans degree. My much younger daughter (second marriage) also sans degree works for Chase Bank and does quite well although she did go back to school at their expense. My youngest son also has fared well in factory work with a good ability to do fault analysis on machinery making him well worth the bucks his employer pays him. The only difference is some of return from work with an immediate need for a shower and some don't. People are generally compensated on their worth to their employer. There isn't a damn thing wrong with the skilled trades. Higher education is not a guarantee to higher wages. The higher wages come with making oneself worth the money to their employer.

Ron