Obama-Care, dead?

Reloadron said:

Now at 3v0 I can't see where taxes are at the root cause of the problem here. Try as I will I can't see a link between corporate taxes and outsourcing work.

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As you said it all comes down to the bottom line and various taxes can be a larger part of that. In the case of the company I worked for they moved the work to another branch of the same multi national company. A few decades ago some of the sub parts were outsourced. I can see how that was not clear.

We all have different perspectives based on what we know. They are not always mutually exclusive.

Reload, let me start off by saying that I think you are a very articulate man and you present your argument quite convincingly. What I really like is that you present your argument in a courteous, polite manner. With that said, I think I know where 3V0 is coming from.
I have a case in point. At one time here in San Diego, the General Dynamics Corporation was a major employer for the city.
The Ca state taxes were very business unfriendly and as a result GD eventually pulled up stakes and moved it's interest to Arizona.

Tens of thousands of San Diegans (myself included) found themselves without a job, and our economy suffered for it. I guess what I am saying is that I see the point that 3V0 is making.

Wow, very enlightening.

Mikebits, I lived in San Diego for a number of years. I did have dealings with General Dynamics in Pomona at the time and it was long, long ago. I can see where the move to Arizona put a hurt on San Diego. I was never aware of it. They found greener pasture in a dessert.

3v0 I can now really see where you are coming from with the tax thing. I guess outsourcing parts really hits home when the outsourced parts are the parts you make. With the bottom line being profit margin and survival.

I'll tell you what is ironic. I live and work in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. That is where Cleveland happens to be. Now Cuyahoga county just happens to be the most heavily taxed county in Ohio. Not just for the workers but for business in general. Ohio is wondering why they have lost over 400,000 jobs in the past few years. Now go figure that one out. Ohio in general is not business friendly. They try to look business friendly but fail miserably at actually being business friendly. The end result is many good businesses are either closing or moving down south. For the better part we have fools representing us and when you get to Cleveland we have the best fools the state has to offer.

Years ago as I mentioned the money flowed freely and this place was a glow in the dark boon town. Abandoned steel mills once a center and pillar of American industry sit decaying and vacant. Pretty ugly sight.

The real ***** of all of this is the American worker is paying the price. The jobs that leave aren't going to come back. Every day I see frustration growing up here and every day I see more and more people with a mind leaving this area. No future here for them.

My wife and myself have been fortunate. She manages a small TV station and I work for Babcock & Wilcox in a nuclear operations division. B&W is a subsidiary of McDermott International. I'll be 62 in a few years an just look forward to bidding Ohio a fond farewell with my retirement.

I do want to thank you guys for some enlightenment as to this tax thing. I never saw it, like a forest through the trees thing. Now that I can relate it to my own little neighborhood it's pretty easy to understand.

Ron

Even if our people worked for free there was no way to continue production in the US. To remain competitive we had close the line.

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I don't believe that for a split second, but I understand what you mean about taxes now, the companies are being bled dry by the government, we're really talking about different sectors of buisness though I do agree with you now about the taxes bit. I live in NY state and even for the US I hear taxes here are pretty rough on businesses, one of the reason they're going out of state if not out of country.

The way I see this whole outsource thing is simple. A business, any business large or small exist for a single sole purpose and that is to make money. Large businesses that are public traded have a fiduciary responsibility to their share holders to make money. I think we can all agree on that. The name of the game is to make money.

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That's true, but it's always bugged me personally. But I lean pretty heavily towards favoring a socialist state, I just happen to also know how absolutely impossible that actually is in reality, it sucks.

The EPA is personally on my list of government agencies I'm disgruntled with, I image it's a nightmare in CA, but as someone that worked in a Plating shop for 10 years environmental regulations and penalities have made it incredibly difficult to operate in the US as opposed to other countries, a lot of the plants were moved down to Mexico not because of taxes but because of these environmental regulations which don't exist just a few mile south of Texas, at the end of the day I think it's really a mixutre of all of these issues together causing pressure to move buisness out of localities (both city state and country wise)

It's not even so much that I dislike what the EPA is trying to do, but as sad as it sounds there has to be a cost benefit ratio applied to some of the stuff they do, take a look at some of the more controversial Superfund sites. Although it's been a while since I've looked up the specifics but did you know that the discharge limit for some metals and particulates is actually higher for bottled drinking water than it is for companies that have to have a sewer discharge permit (small plating job shops) rediculous.

Somewhat random ramblings

To use a tired cliche our governments are biting the hand that feeds them. Has it come to the point where none working voters are in the majority? When politicians pander to this class it is bad news for tax payers.

I once heard that it would make sense for the goverment not to tax businesses. The theory was that the taxes paid by the labor force would be enough. While I am not sure that I agree, it does seem to make more sense then driving them away.

Rumor has it that China is subsidizing production to ensure that it does not leave.

It's definitely getting to that point 3v0. It's a problem with the masses. I guess you can chalk it up to the growing pains of a modern society. To the best of our knowledge, no civilization has ever existed on this scale and interdependency.

I think the big problem is our government being too involved in businesses, and people's lives. They set a minimum wage, so one can make flipping burgers can make a lifetime career out of it. Jobs meant as part-time, or entry level, now pay almost enough to support a family. Employers could get the work done cheaply, young adults, or people needing a second job, could pick up a little extra income. Now we have affordable health insurance for everyone, and somebody has to pay for it, not to mention the heath care its meant to pay the bulk of, so more people can take advantage of medical services. The people making the huge profits off this, are still going to want their share. There will also need to be more people to handle the paper work (guess this is where Obama hope to create all those jobs, over the next couple of years). More insurance company employees, mean higher costs for them, so higher premiums for us. Downsizing is the best way to cut costs, so there will be fewer paying in, more freeloaders. Still hope they will stop this, before it gets to far out of control.

I do agree that there should be limits and controls, on how much an insurance company can put in their pocket, and dropping your coverage before you need to use it. I think if they call it Health Care Reform, the focus should have been on the doctor's bill, and why no one can see a doctor without insurance. All Obama-care does is increase the expense, but spread it out, so more people end up paying for it.