Product specs

[jpanhalt]

I believe I did answer the question, but you ignored the reasons I gave. My personal experience in purchasing consumer goods is a datum to recognize. I also listed other exports from food to recreational items of dubiously quality. All those exports are widely known and documented as scandals involving cover-ups, regardless whether you care about them or not. However, just to prove that I am not the only one who experienced this proven fact, I submit below three links I easily found on the internet.

Ratch

https://www.economist.com/node/13642306
https://thediplomat.com/2015/07/how-made-in-china-became-a-stigma/
**broken link removed**

OK, Ratch, let's assume you do $1,000,000.00 of business a year with China. That is much less than 0.1% of the total, and on that basis, you make very broad and disparaging remarks about it. So, to put it into perspective, how much business in $ did you actually do with China last year? How much in the past 10 years?

John

 

[Ratchit]

OK, Ratch, let's assume you do $1,000,000.00 of business a year with China. That is much less than 0.1% of the total, and on that basis, you make very broad and disparaging remarks about it. So, to put it into perspective, how much business in $ did you actually do with China last year? How much in the past 10 years?

John

I am not talking about a being a multi-megaton corporation who can afford to have a QC inspector in their factory to make sure a product gets made correctly. I am a former consumer of Chinese goods who is now wiser. As you can see from those links, I am not the only one who thinks the same way.

Ratch

 

[jpanhalt]

I am not talking about a being a multi-megaton corporation who can afford to have a QC inspector in their factory to make sure a product gets made correctly. I am a former consumer of Chinese goods who is now wiser. As you can see from those links, I am not the only one who thinks the same way.

Ratch

So, to you, repetition = proof? Is that so?

John

 

[Ratchit]

So, to you, repetition = proof? Is that so?

John

Certainly. If their consumer products are endemically lacking in quality, and violating consumer safety laws multiple times, then they are career scamsters.

Ratch

 

[jpanhalt]

Certainly. If their consumer products are endemically lacking in quality, and violating consumer safety laws multiple times, then they are career scamsters.

Ratch

Yes, but you and others like you are such a small fraction of the total commerce as to be insignificant. Didn't you even notice the comments of Tim Cook (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...ducts-in-china-because-its-cheaper-2015-12-20 )? Those who ignore the advice of such leaders are bound to reap the "benefits" of their ignorance. Again, please cite your sources. If you have none, then this discussion is bound to be fruitless.

John

 

[spec]

What happened, your Rover didn't start this morning?

I havent got a Rover, but my neighbour's down the road wouldn't start this morning- mainly because he has got the cam out at the moment- highly tuned car. I have a 17 year-old Pug- none of this new-fangled stuff for me.

Another example: the hi-mv that flatten your oscilloscope is controlled by electronic equipment made by Ian Rogers

Ian must have done a good job- very impressive machine. You don't get the right size from the pic. It swipped the roof off the house in about 20 minutes. The roof had 4,700 clay tiles on it... all put up by hand by me. Each tile cost £1 UK too.

 

[Ratchit]

Yes, but you and others like you are such a small fraction of the total commerce as to be insignificant.

I am not talking about the total commerce of China. I am stating that anyone who buys a Chinese product sold by a retailer in the US, and probably elsewhere, runs the risk of getting an inferior product with respect to its materials and assembly. Nothing you have shown including that interview with TC have rebutted that view. TC did not refute what I am sayig.

Didn't you even notice the comments of Tim Cook (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...ducts-in-china-because-its-cheaper-2015-12-20 )?

Sure I did. He said that he can find more workers with skills in China. So what? What he really means is that he can find more skilled workers willing to work for less than those in the US and elsewhere. He also admitted that taxes would eat him up in the US. All that might be true, but it does not address what I have been saying about China's quality problem.

Those who ignore the advice of such leaders are bound to reap the "benefits" of their ignorance.

His advice does me no good because it does not address what I am saying and I am not a manufacturer.

Again, please cite your sources. If you have none, then this discussion is bound to be fruitless.

Again, read the links I already submitted. It is universally accepted that China exports shoddy commercial goods including foodstuffs. There have been many incidents where their practices have resulted in trouble and even deaths for a lot of folks who trusted the product they purchased would be what they expected. The links I submitted state that fact and give examples of Chinese chicanery even against their own people.

Ratch

 

[zahwi]

I am not talking about the total commerce of China. I am stating that anyone who buys a Chinese product sold by a retailer in the US, and probably elsewhere, runs the risk of getting an inferior product with respect to its materials and assembly.

The main thing we both agree is that you are hopelessly pedantic.
I assess the Chinese products from personal experience. I estimate the average quality to be about 80% of products manufactured in the West.
The extreme opinions that you get in the media are very biased. It is also true that it's easier for Western media to tell lies about news from abroad because they can't be sued.
I buy electronic components on ebay from China. Half of what I bought arrived defective and most products were second hand.
I buy Chinese products in shops because they are much cheaper and I'm ready to tolerate the low quality of most products. I wont buy some products that the quality is important to me, I wont buy Chinese music because it's cheap. Most people do that.
Another reason that I buy goods directly from China is the chance to punish the middle men in the West. I don't like them taking very large cut in everything. What kind of economy is this that the manufacturer gets 5% and the salesman gets 95%.

 

[Ratchit]

The main thing we both agree is that you are hopelessly pedantic.

I readily admit that.

I assess the Chinese products from personal experience. I estimate the average quality to be about 80% of products manufactured in the West.

I have found Chinese consumer products to fail before their time unless they are seldom used. So have other folks as enumerated in the three links given previously.

The extreme opinions that you get in the media are very biased.

How can you say that. If the media report on a defective product, such as sulfur laden dry wall making people sick, that is a fact, not an opinion.

It is also true that it's easier for Western media to tell lies about news from abroad because they can't be sued.

And the folks in other countries cannot sue the Chinese government for product failure.

I buy electronic components on ebay from China. Half of what I bought arrived defective and most products were second hand.

I don't patronize ebay, but we were not discussing ebay, were we?

I buy Chinese products in shops because they are much cheaper and I'm ready to tolerate the low quality of most products.

That is your choice and preference. Your willingness to put up with low quality implies that Chinese consumer goods are shoddy.

I wont buy some products that the quality is important to me, I wont buy Chinese music because it's cheap. Most people do that.

It appears that you agree that Chinese goods lack quality.

Another reason that I buy goods directly from China is the chance to punish the middle men in the West.

Someone has to buy the goods in wholesale lots, advertise them, display them, and resell them. In the West, private companies do that. In the East, state controlled economies do the same thing.

I don't like them taking very large cut in everything. What kind of economy is this that the manufacturer gets 5% and the salesman gets 95%.

Where do you get those figures? In any case, whomever performs the retailing is going to make a profit.

Ratch

 

[Elerion]

One thing is clear: things have a cost, and very cheap product just (most cases) cannot stand against well thought/built products.

The question is, do we always need a superb product? But let me develop this idea a bit more...

Of course, we always need to ditinguish and look at every particular case. There are some manufacturers that charge a (sometimes much) higher price for their products just because there are considered leaders, but most of the times and thats my opinion, paying more gives you more. Again, the question is, do I need a Tektronix scope (or Fluke meter, or whatever), or can I go with a chinese clone of a clone?

People in developed countries are getting used to get cheaper and cheaper products, and everything, in general, is dropping in quality vs features. Not only products, but also quality of service. To mention something, in Spain it is totally imposible to find a good telephone/mobile/internet service provider. They all suck. No matter how much you are willing to pay. People demand speed and features, but want all CHEAP. Well stablished companies have to follow the trend if they want to survive (being leaders).

This is making that we can have MORE things, but no BETTER than tweenty years ago. Sure, faster, with more capacity, etc... but my first computer could still be in use. A modern table or laptop usually breaks or mysteriously fails after a couple of years.

The topic is too broad to be discussed here, but just some brushstrokes.
Things just change.

 

[spec]

One area to be concerned about with goods from any country is how they are produced, not their quality per se for the moment. If it involves mistreatment of workers or animals, that is an issue that worries me. I wont eat petty foie gras or veal because of the uncessary cruelty. I read a book about coffee production in South America and how the small coffee producers were held in virtual serfdom by the big coffee barons.

There are very serious aspects to product quality, and that is in critical areas, especially safety critical. There was a case in India (if I remember correctly) where a manufacturer had used sub-standard steel to make artificial hip and knee joints. The result was that after a year or so they started rusting and caused the patients extreme pain- made me cringe when I read about it. Another case was where ordinary bolts were sold as aircraft grade. They were OK for a while but brought down an aircraft due to fatigue failure after a few hundred flying hours. I would never buy a parachute from Ebay.

To change the subject: about the word pedantic. To one person a pedant is careful, thoughtful and thorough, to another person a pedant is nit-picking, turgid and boring. I get accused of the latter often, also of being irresponsible and careless- both true. If I were having brain surgery, I sure as hell would want the brain surgeon to be pedantic!

 

[spec]

One thing is clear: things have a cost, and very cheap product just (most cases) cannot stand against well thought/built products.

The question is, do we always need a superb product?

It doesn't follow that cheap is lower quality, quite the reverse in many cases

There are some manufacturers that charge a (sometimes much) higher price for their products just because there are considered leaders, but most of the times and thats my opinion, paying more gives you more.

Many times they are exactly the same product- just badge engineered to look different

Again, the question is, do I need a Tektronix scope (or Fluke meter, or whatever), or can I go with a chinese clone of a clone?

Definately don't need, but definately would like. I have a Tek scope.... from 1991

People in developed countries are getting used to get cheaper and cheaper products, and everything, in general, is dropping in quality vs features. Not only products, but also quality of service. To mention something, in Spain it is totally imposible to find a good telephone/mobile/internet service provider. They all suck. No matter how much you are willing to pay. People demand speed and features, but want all CHEAP. Well stablished companies have to follow the trend if they want to survive (being leaders).

This is true, but nothing to do with cheap products. This is a big big area and something that really gets up my nose. Good subject for a new thread- fancy starting it?

This is making that we can have MORE things, but no BETTER than tweenty years ago. Sure, faster, with more capacity, etc... but my first computer could still be in use. A modern table or laptop usually breaks or mysteriously fails after a couple of years.

Too true. I know one of the major reasons why laptops fail mysteriously

The topic is too broad to be discussed here, but just some brushstrokes.

Start a new thread- should attact much discussion

Things just change.

Yes, thats life. But, with reservations, things change for the better

By the way- nice post

 

[spec]

If you buy chinese stuff, open it and see if at least ground is where it should be (some products have ground and live...REVERSED) and other odd stuff like capacitors backwards, any obvious.

Hi fez,

I have seen that kind of thing on many items. A related situation: We bought a house in the 1970s from the plans. When the house was finally built, we had assurances about the high quality of the build and certificates for this and that, particularly the wiring. When we moved in my wife and I kept getting tinglings from kettles electric fires etc. I put it down to static, probably because it was a new house. But, one day I pulled a wall socket module off. The earth wire was not connected. It was the same with half the sockets in the house, yet the certificate said that 10A earth bonding and integrity tests had passed.

Another totally unrelated story : We went to see the house at major building stages and at the final stage I noticed that the front door had a large knot spanning one of the stles- it was sure to give with rain and sun. I went to see the builders agent about the door and asked for it to be changed. He flatley refused, saying that the door was perfectly adequate an to the apprpriate British Standard and full building regulations. So that was that.

On a later visit to see the house, I noticed a chap in a suit and hard hat wandering around and taking notes. This gave me an idea. I got a large felt-tip and wrote on the offending front door 'TO BE CHANGED- BELOW STANDARD' and signed undeneath in a very impressive signature (made up). A week later a nice new door was fitted- with no knots! There is more ways of killing a cat than by poking it's eyes out with a hot poker!

 

[fezder]

Well that's new, even thought eart bonding test and such were passed, still earth wires were lose? This hurts me in profession-way, i'm graduated in that mains voltage EE-stuff (sorry, don't know what it is in english, but mains-voltage stuff. According to teachers i wouldn't need that lower-voltage EE based on my knowledge, but i'll try to apply to local university of applied sciences, enlish one to keep and learn english language in good level) Teacher once said that there are two main goals: NOT to get yourself killed, and NOt to get your customer killed.

 

[fezder]

It doesn't follow that cheap is lower quality, quite the reverse in many cases

Hmm, yeah i have feeling that some bigger brands use their ''status'' as ''excuse'' (probably wrong word) to make low-quality products, while being luxury-priced.
Not quality issue, but i don't like new cars in the way when pillars get in way and there's all fancy stuff like reverse-camera. We have two Chrysler pt cruisers, only differences are other has turbo, other doesn't. (not that modern car per-se....)
The steering radius is just like what elephant would go around, way too big compared to car's size: wheels just won't turn enough, and it's pain to maneuver in tight spaces. Pillars get in way. And changing headlamps are pain, not even local car-repair shops know how to (no wonder, there are too many cars out there) so, it's possible, but you must take wheel out, then you have access on bulbs....Thank god i haven't gotten my hands on CAN-bus vehicles,I've heard they too are annoying when it comes to bulbs. This all was just personal opinions, I'm old-fashioned, but i like when stuff can be repaired without paying arm and leg from simple services

 

[spec]

Hmm, yeah i have feeling that some bigger brands use their ''status'' as ''excuse'' ... to make low-quality products, while being luxury-priced.

Hi again Fez

You are very perceptive- quite right, some of the status products are expensive junk.

...(probably wrong word)

Not wrong word- exactly right. Other words would be, image, reputation, standing, or bull!

Not quality issue, but i don't like new cars in the way when pillars get in way and there's all fancy stuff like reverse-camera. We have two Chrysler pt cruisers, only differences are other has turbo, other doesn't. (not that modern car per-se....)
The steering radius is just like what elephant would go around, way too big compared to car's size: wheels just won't turn enough, and it's pain to maneuver in tight spaces. Pillars get in way. And changing headlamps are pain, not even local car-repair shops know how to (no wonder, there are too many cars out there) so, it's possible, but you must take wheel out, then you have access on bulbs....Thank god i haven't gotten my hands on CAN-bus vehicles,I've heard they too are annoying when it comes to bulbs. This all was just personal opinions, I'm old-fashioned, but i like when stuff can be repaired without paying arm and leg from simple services

Woooah, you are getting into a huge subject here. I can feel my blood pressure rising.- another good subject for a new thread

 

[fezder]

I can feel my blood pressure rising

Haha, perhaps i showed wrong bee's nest. Thing is, i'm too young to understand cars that well at all Honestly, i haven't even heard of person that would understand 100% of faults, considering what loose ground wire can make system-wise

 

[spec]

Well that's new, even thought eart bonding test and such were passed, still earth wires were lose? This hurts me in profession-way, i'm graduated in that mains voltage EE-stuff (sorry, don't know what it is in english, but mains-voltage stuff. According to teachers i wouldn't need that lower-voltage EE based on my knowledge, but i'll try to apply to local university of applied sciences, enlish one to keep and learn english language in good level) Teacher once said that there are two main goals: NOT to get yourself killed, and NOt to get your customer killed.

You are one of the ones who knows the score, care and are diligent- many are imcompetent and don't care a damn. The worst thing is that they carry on without any comeback, as is the case with the earths on my house. The other thing is that things are in such a shambles, with many sub contractors and things going on that things get missed- probably what happened with the earths. I expect the dertificate was just signed off by someone in an office who had never even visited the building site.

 

[spec]

Haha, perhaps i showed wrong bee's nest. Thing is, i'm too young to understand cars that well at all Honestly, i haven't even heard of person that would understand 100% of faults, considering what loose ground wire can make system-wise

Bee's nest ha ha, neat new English word usage. Other similar would, be, rats nest or can of worms- hornets nest too. Don't keep appologising: your English meaning is clear and cocise- that is all that counts!

Yes, a simple bad earth on a car (auto) can lead to all sorts of wierd symptoms. Also, corroded connectors, especially on 1990s UK Fords. If you take your car to the authorised dealer, they just keep changing modules, without fixing the fault, oh and send you a clossal bill. Open a new thread- I have many many stories about cars. I worked part-time, after work and week ends, in a garage.

 

[fezder]

If you take your car to the authorised dealer, they just keep changing modules, without fixing the fault

WITHOUT even looking for fault, they check with fancy meter ''oh look, our meter says this'' change overprized part and sending overprized bill....only so customer can come back after 1000km so change same part. If i would have proper garage where to fix my car, i would do all stuff myself, except when some heavy-lifting is needed. And i should make better computer for my car, currently UI is in russia....and it's constantly on, draining battery. But yeah, suppose i could make ''car rant thread'' just to keep this thread clean from un-necessary stuff

I've read accidents from local safety-institute's site, as well as trade union's magazine which comes monthly. My buddy got almost electrocuted when on building site, installing just basic outlet. The leader was putting stuff on live and mistakenly switched that outlet as live which my buddy was working on. Luckily, she noticed that there were live voltage when she started to place wires and tightening when rattling started from contacts. Can't recall how leader took this information that he had made such mistake. Even this we were taught that when placing stuff on live, all must be present at junction box, but i fear nowadays rush-rush-rush is what makes all these accidents possible. Too much hurry to go ones grave....