PWM & high current

[bryan1]

I did say in my post above to keep this above board and no sooner the skeptics have moved to try and de-rail this entire thread. I will leaves things be for now and any further non topical posts( you know what I mean) the op will wish they didnt post.

The whole point about separating the forum was to let RE and Alternate energy be separate and mainly to stop the entire forum becoming a joke. If some members just want to continue trashing this part of the forum then maybe they shouldn'y bother posting in here.


Regards Bryan

 

[be80be]

This thread could have gone somewhere good. I personally would have liked to see pictures of his electrolysis setup, schematics of his control unit etc and maybe people could have commented on making it better, more efficient plate clearing, electrolyte circulation, higher efficiency electronics, electroliser heat recycling etc. Hydrogen IS a legitimate energy storage medium and there is a lack of legit hydrogen research going on by people who actually have the skills.

But the thread immediately headed out into left field talking about JFK and Meyers and government conspiracies etc etc. And so the people who have the skills will walk away accomplishing nothing and claiming "hydrogen is a scam" and the people who don't have the skills will keep trying to make the world a better place but hindered by burning their fingers on their smoking output caps.

Sigh.

Mr RB I'm like you I would like to see it to like shown some pictures it would help maybe a circuit or two would be good.

There is power in water but it takes power to get it out that's not free.

Now maybe we could make a nao power generator
to brake down the water maybe.

 

[be80be]

I can not find any help in these forums as to how to post a .bmp or .jpg or whatever. The schematic at ZFF's site is exactly what I have been working with except I put 2 130 amp mosfets in parallel. So there it can be found. No secret's, nothing hidden. Just guys trying to get something working right. ZFF is apparently a busy fellow so I can't slight him because his circuit DID fix a lot of problems to date.

thank you again

Bill I don't no how to post it. I didn't no where to attache my files to the forum but I give you this Alternative Energy research by Zero Fossil Fuel - Hydrogen, Solar, Wind LoL that site don't show how the OP made his
cel or what ever you call it.
Why can't people that say they want help post what there taking about.

They have the pwm part but what making your capacitor go bad could be in the cel

 

[electrookie]

I've read too many of them..

Of course you're not going to want to read any HHO information with the science behind it.
Run your car on water? - it's a scam!

I've read too many of them and I don't waste my time with them any longer. I know it works, its been working for me. That's all I care about. As for the matter of FREE. I know what you are saying, unity or over unity. No claims to that here. Your talking about the amount of energy used to make the HHO. Whatever the numbers are, I just know HHO makes my cars and trucks run better, live longer, and most importantly, SAVES MONEY!!!

For circuits, the CCPWM in its most recent version can be found at Web hosting, domain name registration and web services by 1&1 Internet. And for photos, I have a few here somewhere. But not nearly as many, and as varied, as you will find if you just Google HHO. Tons of videos as well so you can see the truth. I know some of them are making outlandish claims, but that is mostly due to their ignorance, and they do in fact show these systems working.

 

[electrookie]

I will not argue...

People can say what they want, I have no problem with that. HHO is not an alternate energy but is actually wastefull, you just can't get around the laws of thermodynamics. Instead of a link I'll post this article on why.

From Aardvark Daily

I will not argue with you or anyone else. There have been problems getting HHO to work properly. The constant current PWM has been one of the many need answers. And that answer needed some help, ergo, I asked for help here, and got it. So I once again thank those who have provided the help. As for you sir, believe what you wish. I seem to be spinning my wheels with you and that stops now.

 

[electrookie]

Your efforts would be most welcome

And as I stated I will do the experiments in as scientific of fashion as possible if I choose to do them at all. I have the materials, the equipment to fashion the components, the knowledge of electrical and electronics devices, and the knowledge and hands on experience with internal combustion engines to be able to account for what does or does not happen.

If I do it and nothing happens I will state that nothing happened. But if something does... I am going to find out what caused it and why it so happens despite the present scientific opinions that it shouldn't work at all. And then I too will customize my design to fit my vehicles and give the dirty finger to the fuel companies a bit more than I do right now!

Besides, once the universe rotated around the earth, the world was flat, machines couldn't fly, and the sound barrier couldn't be broken by anything large enough a human could fit into! And absolutely everybody knew all of that was scientifically true and unquestionable facts!

Your efforts would be most welcome should you get involved with this. Your electronics expertise especially. And if you do begin to play with this, you will soon become enthralled with it, at least this is my impression from the few threads we have shared. And who knows, it may be you that does in fact come up with something that exceeds unity which so many people seem fixated upon. Then I would be very thrilled to be the one who introduced you to HHO.

And considering the agencies and companies I have cited that are using or doing research into HHO, one would have to think these people are not wasting their monies on fruitless challenges. At least the reasonable thinker would suppose. So, as I pointed out in another reply in this thread, I will not get sucked into any arguments as to the merits of this technology. Again, it works for me and my wallet and we are both very happy with this result.

And I couldn't agree more, I don't take others claims, for or against, with too many things. I must try them myself and if they work, I get on board. When they do not work, I will just as quickly decry my experience, but, submit my results for review in case my efforts may trigger someone else to find a way to make "it" work, whatever "it" is.

And the next "scientific truth" to be shattered, in the list you cited, is the speed limit imposed upon light! Heck, Hollywood already figured it out...

 

[electrookie]

Actually...

Alternative Energy research by Zero Fossil Fuel - Hydrogen, Solar, Wind LoL that site don't show how the OP made his
cel or what ever you call it.
Why can't people that say they want help post what there taking about.

They have the pwm part but what making your capacitor go bad could be in the cel

Actually, if you look closely at the web site, you will find that ZFF makes, and continues to make, videos of ALL his work, and not just his electronics. This guy is an educated researcher and he has taught me much just by watching his work. I have tried to communicate with him, but he apparently does not like to reply too often & I can imagine why, he must get hundreds of emails daily from people like myself. He is up to around 170 of these videos to date, perhaps a bit more, I haven't been there for a while.

And your lack of spending time on that site is exactly what I would expect of you. You do not want to know the truth, so you decry and criticize in ignorance. Dig deeper, you may find a truth that one day changes your life, and not necessarily in regards to HHO.

As for the problem with the PWM. There have been a couple gentlemen here who have helped to resolve this issue, which is the reason I joined this forum. I do not want to try to convince anyone about this. I was married toooooo looooong to a pessimistic personality, I have that merit badge ∫η §ρΔΦξ§ & on t-shirts of may colors - thank you very much..., and I refuse to waste my time with such efforts. If you are not here to help, then please do not waste mine, nor others here that have helped me. Besides, as I understand it, this is not the place for such debates and you get way off subject.

It works for me and my wallet (...heard something like this recently as well...hmmmm). That's what I am concerned with.

Good day...

 

[electrookie]

Get over it...

Prove it. Post your design. Did you modify your O2 sensor? Why aren't you rich? Why doesn't every own one of your designs? Where's your Nobel prize?

I just read a post from the moderator and I agree with him, so this is the LAST TIME I will get off topic here.

I have no need to prove to anyone anything. If your ignorant bliss is your happy little world, enjoy!!!

I have pointed to numerous resources for designs. You investigate for yourself.

How do you now if I am rich or not? Do you know my ex-wife ??? Besides, I measure wealth in values that are lost on you if they are not $$$'s. And even there, define rich. Never mind, this stops now.

Eventually many people will own such designs. Most of these will be intelligent, reasoning folks, unlike some others we know.

What's a Nobel Prize....

 

[electrookie]

Amen...

I did say in my post above to keep this above board and no sooner the skeptics have moved to try and de-rail this entire thread. I will leaves things be for now and any further non topical posts( you know what I mean) the op will wish they didnt post.

The whole point about separating the forum was to let RE and Alternate energy be separate and mainly to stop the entire forum becoming a joke. If some members just want to continue trashing this part of the forum then maybe they shouldn'y bother posting in here.


Regards Bryan

I have been in forums other than this one in the past & understand there are rules to go by. I originally asked for help, not intending to get into any "debates" over any issue. It is difficult for me to ignore slams and trying to get them out of the way seems fruitless in this case. From this point forward, I will vow to STAY ON TOPIC and disregard these people.

I do appreciate this forum and wish to continue here in good faith and on topic with only the truth. This is not the place for such debates. And there is a reason I do not join any forum that debates anything, stupid people make me laugh too much, and I just have to waste my time with them.

 

[tcmtech]

The thing is some people dont care about how much money something will make them. If I do get a system built and in the highly unlikely event it does produce large amounts of mechanical power with very little fuel used I am not going to be shooting my mouth off about it in order to make millions but rather quietly using it to better my own life with as little attention drawn to me as possible.

First realistic theory is that if it does work I am building a system of co- generation gen sets and then be selling power back to the utilities with it if the operating cost outlay is even only slightly less than the sale of electricity is worth.
Second is that I would be setting up a number of over the road trucks to do goods transport trucking. Cutting the cost of fuel out of trucking would give me a substantial advantage over any other trucking business.

As far as the over unity claims one very simple fact always seem to get overlooked. The fact we are surrounded by incredible amounts of naturally occurring forms of energy already. By tapping into them that does not disobey any laws of science.

Here is an example of not so over unity but still could count if all forms of energy are not taken into account.
If you took a your vehicles alternator and left out the mechanical input aspect of it what you would see is a device that takes a small electrical current and turns it into a large one. Its over unity in the electrical sense provided you dont account for the other 'mechanical input' part of the equation.

Thats how much of the over unity claims can in fact be dismissed and still work within the laws of science. The extra energy is coming from a less known or simply overlooked commonly occurring source.

Just a theory.

 

[electrookie]

You SO got it...

The thing is some people dont care about how much money something will make them. If I do get a system built and in the highly unlikely event it does produce large amounts of mechanical power with very little fuel used I am not going to be shooting my mouth off about it in order to make millions but rather quietly using it to better my own life with as little attention drawn to me as possible.

First realistic theory is that if it does work I am building a system of co- generation gen sets and then be selling power back to the utilities with it if the operating cost outlay is even only slightly less than the sale of electricity is worth.
Second is that I would be setting up a number of over the road trucks to do goods transport trucking. Cutting the cost of fuel out of trucking would give me a substantial advantage over any other trucking business.

As far as the over unity claims one very simple fact always seem to get overlooked. The fact we are surrounded by incredible amounts of naturally occurring forms of energy already. By tapping into them that does not disobey any laws of science.

Here is an example of not so over unity but still could count if all forms of energy are not taken into account.
If you took a your vehicles alternator and left out the mechanical input aspect of it what you would see is a device that takes a small electrical current and turns it into a large one. Its over unity in the electrical sense provided you dont account for the other 'mechanical input' part of the equation.

That's how much of the over unity claims can in fact be dismissed and still work within the laws of science. The extra energy is coming from a less known or simply overlooked commonly occurring source.

Just a theory.

Without repeating everything you said here, this is all exactly correct. In nature, energy IS free. And what if one uses solar panels to power batteries that run an HHO system or other similar technologies. Once the expense for the equipment is covered, the energy is technically FREE.

And keeping things on the down low is also they way I think. If something does eventually become of this, I will employ its use as you described and more. I've been thinking of applications for a long time now and they are MANY.

As for perpetual motion, what is the secret of the electron's that circle every atom?

As an aside here, my apologies to blueroom... whatever, I just realized who you are Mr. President. And I now understand your position and your tenacity as well as conviction to it. My ex-wife is your executive secretary at the N.A.P.S (North American Pessimist Society).

Have a good day...

 

[tcmtech]

Very true.
But have you ever tapped on a deep cycle battery after it has been charging for while?
The mechanical shock will knock loose the built up hydrogen bubbles between the plates and for a short time there is an measurable increase in charging current.
What happens is the bubbles will build up and cut down on the conductive area of the plate surfaces. When tapped on the physical jolt will get many of those bubbles to break free from the plate surfaces and thusly opens up a larger surface ares for the acid to interact with which relates to the increase in current flow until the bubbles are reformed again.

By properly pulsing the current going through a battery it is possible to make a slight physical resonance in the structure of the battery that will also shake the bubbles free. However that resonance frequency is going to be different for every battery and will also change as the battery ages due to the physical and electrochemical changes that occur over time.

That electrically shaking of the electrolysis cells works the same way. And just as two different battery designs are not the same two electrolysis cells are not the same and thusly will have different physical resonance frequency's.
By hitting the physical resonance point the electrodes will tend to shake off the bubbles of gas they are forming faster and will allow more current flow. More gas is formed but more power is required to do it as well. It just speeds up the process.

Solid provable and proven science.

 

[mneary]

In a FLA battery, doesn't the hydrogen accumulate primarily at plate locations where the plate can't store any additional energy? Classical cell (battery) design is normally robust, because plate movement tends to cause shorts.

For "electronic shaking" to work, the electrolysis cells to be physically resonant to a degree that would be intolerable in a battery.

 

[Mr RB]

OK, so what's the problem you are having with the constant current PWM source? Are you using current sensing and a closed loop system to control the PWM so it always passes the correct current?

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

 

[electrookie]

A better, easier way to get bubbles off....

Very true.
But have you ever tapped on a deep cycle battery after it has been charging for while?
The mechanical shock will knock loose the built up hydrogen bubbles between the plates and for a short time there is an measurable increase in charging current.
What happens is the bubbles will build up and cut down on the conductive area of the plate surfaces. When tapped on the physical jolt will get many of those bubbles to break free from the plate surfaces and thusly opens up a larger surface ares for the acid to interact with which relates to the increase in current flow until the bubbles are reformed again.

Solid provable and proven science.

I am aware of the resonance issue in the HHO cell's & you are correct about how no 2 same designed cell's will be exactly alike. I 1st tried to think of a way to monitor and read a cell's "resonating" freq. some how, and use that to control the frequency the circuit provides. For me anyway, that seems very complicated and over my head.

Then it occurred to me that there is a way to get the bubbles off the plates and way easier. The HH & the O are opposite polarities, and when the cell is powered, one set of plates is positive charged, the other set obviously negative charged & the bubbles stick to their opposite charged plates. So I built a simple timing circuit that switch's the polarity to the plates at about 100 hz.

This gives 2 advantages. First, the plates wear differently over time. One set will deteriorate faster than the other set. By switching the polarity this way, the plates wear evenly, thus extending the life of the cell. The other advantage is that when the charge is switched, the bubbles of same polarity as the plates they are on, will "JUMP" of the plates. This is a very new thing I just came up with and it was within my skill set to build it. I do not yet have the numbers to show as to how much more HHO is produced with this, but it seems like it would be very noticeable.

Then the question is what frequency will prove to be optimum. And the answer to that I think will be dependent on each cell's own characteristics. I just built another switching circuit that has a pot to allow trying different time frames so I will find out these answers real soon.

Now, did I just give away some "secret"? I doubt it. Surely someone else out there has come to a similar conclusion. But again, I am doing this for myself. If a business can be founded on it, all the better. And the circuitry is pretty much public domain, at least what I have been using. So this is my chance to give a little something back to the efforts of HHO, which has been a blessing to me as far as I am concerned.

I did get into researching the PWM IC's as you suggested. And it was a very long night. There are ton's of these things out there and I have a few picked out I intend to play with. When I get something together, I will run it past you for your opinion (and most likely, your guidance).

Have a great day...

 

[tcmtech]

You could also just set up a way to sweep through the aproximate freqency range of the cell. Going slow will alow the right resonance point to to do it thing.

So what type of material are you useing for the electrodes and what type of electrolyte are you using?

I have worked with basic home built electrolysis cells for other aplications and have had good results with 300 and 400 series stainless steels for the elctrodes and just using saturated soduim hydroxide and water as the electrolyte.

One type of Red Devel drain cleaner is 100% sodium hydroxide in crystaline form.

 

[electrookie]

OK, so what's the problem you are having with the constant current PWM source? Are you using current sensing and a closed loop system to control the PWM so it always passes the correct current?

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

Now that I have found how to do so, here it is...

 

[electrookie]

Follow up to schmeatic posted...

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

I forgot to mention that I had a problem with this circuit when using high currents, like 60 to 100 amps. Several gentlemen have let me know why, most likely, the C5 cap was overheating and blowing up. New, higher rated caps on the way now, so looking forward to these fixing said problem. That diode has recently been a problem for another guy I exchange info with (rookie also) and I simply recommended getting one with higher rating (which I will also use on any of these I build from now on).

If there is anything you can see that would improve this circuit, I would be grateful to have your opinion.

And those controls are what I need to have on a new design of this circuit using an IC such as LM3525. tcmtech got me started on this idea, which I will play with and see what I can come up with. Again, if you have any suggestions about this idea of using a PWM IC, then by all means, educate me...

 

[electrookie]

electodes are ....

You could also just set up a way to sweep through the aproximate freqency range of the cell. Going slow will alow the right resonance point to to do it thing.

So what type of material are you useing for the electrodes and what type of electrolyte are you using?

I have worked with basic home built electrolysis cells for other aplications and have had good results with 300 and 400 series stainless steels for the elctrodes and just using saturated soduim hydroxide and water as the electrolyte.

One type of Red Devel drain cleaner is 100% sodium hydroxide in crystaline form.

The plates (electrodes) are mainly 316L stainless. There are a variety of opinions about which stainless is better, and the impact of said plates gauge. Some have even tried nickel plated "whatever" it was and claims to have good results. Some have tried silver plates, and one I know who has more money than sense, says he is making one with gold plated "whatever" it was for the plates.

I have tons of data on the various types of stainless and how they react with different chemicals. Sooooo much to sort thru, its a task for some metallurgist down the road to determine as far as I am concerned. For now, I use 316L 22 gauge plates.

One source conditions the plates before he ships them out. That process supposedly removes most of the surface lead on the stainless that causes the water to turn brown so quickly.

There are many opinions on this subject, I just go with what I know I have used successfully, except when I am in the mood to experiment.

Electrolyte is another subject. I used lye (Red Devil is getting harder to find in the stores - its used to make dope) in the 1st cells, then went to KOH (pot ash) for a while, now using potassium carbonate. I have some connections who are working on "THE" electrolyte of choice, one that you can drink in its concentrated form and not have any ill effects at all. I wonder if that's possible?

I think all things are possible, perhaps sometimes not just practical, but that's what the learning is all about. And sharing info with others tends to open ones eyes up to possibilities one never considered before. Perhaps someday soon, I will be using something very different. The pot. carbo. is not as effective as lye or pot ash, but you can use it with comfort from fearing getting the other chemicals spilled on yourself.

 

[Mr RB]

That circuit does not look like it was designed for 60A to 100A. The output driver for the FET gate is just using the LM324 output and won't switch the FET very fast. Adding a standard push-pull FET driver there would help.

The output caps are probably killing your efficiency. Why do you even need them? If you do get larger/better caps they will maintain a constant low DC voltage at the plates, so you will have a switchmode regulator where the output voltage is made by an RC filter with the voltage being reduced largely by the resistance of your wiring. So the caps won't get as hot as they do now, but the wiring will get hotter.

If you remove the output caps altogether and run the PWM 12v DC direct to the plates the power losses on the wiring resistance will be greatly reduced and you will get better overall efficiency, ie better power transfer into the cell.

The goal with the controller side is;
1. to get the max power into the cell, not lost elsewhere
2. to test different frequencies to get a mechanical resonance (plate vibration) to clear bubble fouling (so the more "pulsing" the DC to the cell the better)
3. To have good test gear connected to measure input power (volts amps) and losses (cell heating) etc so you can actually measure efficiency and improve it

I watched a show on discovery channel a few weeks back, a professor in the USA has an entire house hooked up to hydrogen converting his solar and wind excess into H with a electrolysis cell of his own design, storing the low pressure H in large tanks near the house and using fuel cells to convert some of it back to electricity in low power times. They were really sketchy on his electolysis cell though, only showed a glimpse of it with no discussion of any improvements he's made to it etc.