Some simple truths about hydrogen and HHO

[Jules_Theone]

The oxygen can either be released back into the environment to be recombined with the hydrogen later or bottled for use somewhere else? If you go to the bother of generating the hydrogen to be sold, the oxygen can also be collected to be sold.

 

[SPDCHK]

.... whats going to be done with all the released oxygen.

If CO2 causes global warming, maybe O2 will cause global cooling (Joke)

Seriously though. Every power station does have a H2 plant. (Well at least the ones here in South Africa does). They use the H2 to cool the generator. This H2 factory is usually built somewhere in the corner of the station site, with walls as thick as a castle's. They however only have enough storage facility for the actual requirement.

 

[dknguyen]

Do you think that using hydrogen cars is better than electric cars when the fossil fuels run out?

Hydrogen definately stores more energy than current batteries...but explosive cars doesn't seem fun. ANd where is the hydrogen going to come from? I guess the same could be asked about the electricity for electric cars.

 

[Jules_Theone]

According to Tcmtech, hydrogen is relatively safe compared to petrol and propane etc and i can see his reasoning. I think hydrogen is going to be easier to put in your car than dragging heavy batteries around and then charging them for hours. Surely putting hydrogen into your car will make it lighter (hydrogen is less dense that air?)

 

[ericgibbs]

According to Tcmtech, hydrogen is relatively safe compared to petrol and propane etc and i can see his reasoning. I think hydrogen is going to be easier to put in your car than dragging heavy batteries around and then charging them for hours. Surely putting hydrogen into your car will make it lighter (hydrogen is less dense that air?)

I would guess the logical step would be to have vehicles powered by onboard stored Oxygen as well as the onboard Hydrogen.

So you would fill up the vehicles separate Oxygen and Hydrogen tanks.

Mixed in a 'carb' before entering the cylinders.

 

[magickaldan]

running pure oxygen and pure hydrogen together is a bad idea on car engines, It would have to be one heck of an engine to survive. Better to use natural air with Nitrogen buffers. Just why they use Nitrous in race cars instead of plain oxygen. Nitrogen acts like a buffer absorbing most of the energy keeping the engine from being destroyed.

 

[Sceadwian]

eric, elemental hydrogen stored in the car is bad enough hydrogen and oxygen? Not a freegin chance, you could level and entire city block if that car exploded. All you'd have to do is mix the two gasses together at pressure and it'll auto ignite from the friction more than likley.

 

[Endolith]

eric, elemental hydrogen stored in the car is bad enough hydrogen and oxygen? Not a freegin chance, you could level and entire city block if that car exploded. All you'd have to do is mix the two gasses together at pressure and it'll auto ignite from the friction more than likley.

That's why he said to keep them in separate tanks. Hydrogen can't burn by itself.

And no, hydrogen and oxygen don't spontaneously explode as soon as you mix them together. You need to raise it above the autoignition temperature of 571°C.

 

[Sceadwian]

Yeah, cause in a crash they'll stay separated =)
What about Hydrogen and Oxygen under pressure Endolith? Especially in a crash where there are sparks flying all over the place. One car sets off a second.... It's a recipe for disaster on a large scale. It's a novelty on the small scale.

 

[Endolith]

Yeah, cause in a crash they'll stay separated =)
What about Hydrogen and Oxygen under pressure Endolith? Especially in a crash where there are sparks flying all over the place. One car sets off a second.... It's a recipe for disaster on a large scale. It's a novelty on the small scale.

I didn't say hydrogen cars are a good idea; they aren't at all.

But I don't think a hydrogen tank with a separate oxygen tank is going to be any more dangerous than a hydrogen tank alone, since the air already has plenty of oxygen to react with.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I didn't say hydrogen cars are a good idea; they aren't at all.

But I don't think a hydrogen tank with a separate oxygen tank is going to be any more dangerous than a hydrogen tank alone, since the air already has plenty of oxygen to react with.

Presumably you didn't do chemistry at school? - but if you did, do you remember the simple test for oxygen?.

A high pressure oxygen tank is potentially a VERY dangerous device.

 

[Endolith]

A high pressure oxygen tank is potentially a VERY dangerous device.

You really think a tank of hydrogen is safe, but separate tanks of hydrogen and oxygen near each other are not?

 

[Sceadwian]

Endolith, the WORST case scenario with a hydrogen only setup is it mixes with air and ignites. Ambient air is only about 20% Oxygen. Once the 20% oxygen is burned you'll still have plenty of left over hydrogen which will have to mix with more ambient air, you'll get a decent explosion with a large fireball not an massive explosion. You mix the 2/1 hydrogen oxygen ratio that would be required for onboard oxygen and the whole thing will go up instantly. Your'e talking about an explosion 5 times bigger.

 

[magickaldan]

The beautiful thing about the new Hydrogen Tanks is that they dissolve the hydrogen in a hydride. And in case of puncture, you don't get tons of hydrogen spewing everywhere just a tiny bit if any. But include oxygen with the mix and you got a disaster. But really as I said already they don't need oxygen it would just add weight to the car and then the engine would have to be really tough to take the extra power that oxygen will give the motor.

 

[Sceadwian]

Yeah, I know they've been working on 'stabilizing' the hydrogen somehow as opposed to it being in a raw compressed gas, didn't know how far they'd come. I'm curious about what byproducts or problems the whole thing is going to cause.

 

[magickaldan]

It's pretty amazing stuff have you been to united nuclear? I don't agree on everything they have or prices on there stuff but they've done quite a bit on the hydrogen vehicle kits. And the hydrogen Hydride tanks sound like a good deal. All it takes is a little heat blanket around the tank and you can control how much hydrogen gas is released. United Nuclear - Hydrogen Fuel Systems

 

[Sceadwian]

I still don't quiet understand how hydrogen wins over something like bio-fuels though.

 

[magickaldan]

IMO it doesn't win. Until someone comes up with a system that can generate hydrogen quickly and cheaply and efficiently then maybe it will be viable, but for gas engines a good alternative is alcohol but it still costs just about the same as gasoline and has a lower power/gallon compared to gasoline. So until gasoline is abolished nothing will completely replace it. They'll make synthetic gasoline probably long before that though.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

You really think a tank of hydrogen is safe, but separate tanks of hydrogen and oxygen near each other are not?

No, I never made any such suggestion - I merely pointed out that oxygen isn't 'safe' as you suggested.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I still don't quiet understand how hydrogen wins over something like bio-fuels though.

It doesn't, and I don't think anyone here has suggested it did? - just a discussion about possibilities.