Why don't people listen anymore...selective hearing maybe?

Boncuk said:

You have the power to elect another party to rule the country, which happens pretty often in the Federal Republic of Germany.

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I think, the situation even is worse because not only the leading politicians are „guilty“.
What about us – the people who elect them?

Let’s imagine that there is a group (a political party) promising that their goal is to cure the economical situation in their country – let’s say withion 10..15 years.
However, the price for this long-term project is „blood and tears“ – which means a drastical reduction of each personal income and deterioration of personal welfare.

Question: Would they be elected – in spite of the fact that there is another group promising a constant or even better welfare for the near future?
W.

All political parties make promises to people they never intend to hold - since they can't do it.

No matter which party rules the country: it takes over the faults of the foregoing party and makes new ones.

The number of faults finally becomes high enough to have a certain branch collaps. (Social security system in Germany was top and has now become number 15 worldwide - as bad as 3rd world countries).

Unborn children will have to carry the load of retirement payments of today's generation, etc, etc. It's not funny to observe that development.

One legislative period is four years in the USA and five years in Germany. Even the most honest and true party can't manage to keep their promises.

The next election's results will null all their efforts and the new government will use the old progress to look for more money (loans, higher tax, reduced social work and care).

God didn't create sheep if he didn't want to have them sheared.

Take a close look at North Korea. The leaders there live in luxory and show off with their army and nuclear forces while people starve on hunger!

Sir Winston Churchill once said: "Democracy is the worst way ruling a country, but I don't know of any better."

Boncuk

Boncuk said:

Sir Winston Churchill once said: "Democracy is the worst way ruling a country, but I don't know of any better."
Boncuk

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Yes, I think - unfortunately - one must agree to this.

Boncuk said:

Even the most honest and true party can't manage to keep their promises.

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I think the problem is that people look for absolute assurance that something will take place as stated.

The reality is that in any complex system there is always the possibility of a random failure which we cannot account for.

Which is why critical systems are dual/triple/quad redundant and may have diversity, ie the back-up may be of a totally different design to the primary system.
Systems such as aircraft fly-by-wire and nuclear reactor shutdown systems. And then you get the "Oooo, I never thought of that!" happen like Fukushima.

JimB

JimB said:

The reality is that in any complex system there is always the possibility of a random failure which we cannot account for.

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....we cannot account for?

Hey Jim, do you really think so - and there is nobody who can be blamed?

OK, I agree if I interpret your words as follows: The principal behaviour of the people cannot be changed and the personal egoism dominates over all (with very few exceptions). This explains everything.

JimB said:

Systems such as aircraft fly-by-wire and nuclear reactor shutdown systems. And then you get the "Oooo, I never thought of that!" happen like Fukushima.

JimB

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Hi JimB,

I guess Fukushima was one of the worst examples you could possibly pick.

Primary cooling systems for a nuclear power plant should never be erected below shore flood line! They were put out of order with first Tsunami wave, taking care of a chain reaction of desasters in very quick order.

Safety standards in Europe take care of possible problems during the planning phase already - no comparison possible here!

Boncuk

JimB said:

The reality is that in any complex system there is always the possibility of a random failure which we cannot account for.

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Winterstone commented:

....we cannot account for?
Hey Jim, do you really think so - and there is nobody who can be blamed?

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Maybe a poor choice of words on my part, but the point I was trying to make:
If a piece of equipment has an MTBF of say 1000 hours, Joe Public or a Politician is likely to ask "Can you guarantee that this thing will work for 1000 hours?"

A cautious engineer would reply "No, I cannot guarantee that. There is a high probablility that it will work for 1000 hours, but I cannot guarantee it"

The MTBF may be (calculated) 1000 hours, but that is a statistical thing for many units.
Any one individual unit may last for 1 hour or 1,000,000 hours.
There is no way to predict when that random failure will take place.

Boncuk commented:

I guess Fukushima was one of the worst examples you could possibly pick.

Primary cooling systems for a nuclear power plant should never be erected below shore flood line! They were put out of order with first Tsunami wave, taking care of a chain reaction of desasters in very quick order.

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Maybe I misunderstood the full operation and chain of events at Fukushima.

My understanding was that the main cooling system was powered from the electrical supply grid which was put out of commission by the tsunami.
The back-up cooling system was driven by diesel generators which were also put out of commission by the tsunami.
So although there was a back-up, there was not sufficient diversity to prevent the system being completely put out of commission by the tsunami.
The possiblity of a simultaneous failure of main and back-up from a common cause had not been given enough consideration.

JimB

The primary problem was not electric power!

It was simply H2O, also called water!

Boncuk

Too bad that all nuclear programs have fallen into public disfavors because of the inept Boncuk.

Sceadwian said:

Too bad that all nuclear programs have fallen into public disfavors because of the inept Boncuk.

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Worse, they have fallen into government disfavors in Germany leading to instantaneous shut down of eight nuclear power plants.

Germany was shortly below the point of complete darkness because of grid malfunctions transporting electric energy from offshore wind generator parks to the south.

Solar energy (was off completely due to the season - winter time with almost no sunshine) and power lines couldn't carry the loads anymore.

Next winter will certainly bring about darkness over Germany if the additionally power lines are not finished by that time.

A great Hurray to politicians knowing everything better than scientists!

Not only taking fully functional and safe nuclear power plants out of service, costing millions to watch the nuclear radiation still going on, but paying billions for grid enforcement by high tension lines to be drawn over a distance of 1,200km in packages of 4 X 3 power lines. If one of those masts breaks under the load of ice there will be darkness, no matter if the line was ready all the way or not.

Every citizen in every country has to household with the money he/she earns. Governments don't care a sh..t! They just raise tax or invent a new one to get the money they (believe to) need!

It makes me really sick!

Boncuk

Sorry for posting outside the current topic, but back on the original topic that seems to have ended maybe 2 pages ago...

I am a machine maintenance technician working in a manufacturing plant, and before that I was a field service technician going out to oil rigs to fix equipment manufactured by my company. The 2 problems that I noticed very heavily in my previous job and still notice in my current job, is that primarily nobody wants to accept blame for something going wrong, and secondarily people want to give you their diagnosis instead of the symptoms.

The first one requires little explanation. You ask the operator "what happened" and they reply "I don't know. The P.O.S. machine just quit working" but in course of troubleshooting and cause analysis it becomes apparent that the incident could only be the result of gross operator error. This phenomenon isn't so prevalent in online forums, as people are usually more apt to tell you what stupid thing they did in order to better assist you in telling them how to fix it.

The second one though, I encounter all the time, because I have trained myself to look for it. I always have to question when someone gives a symptom of a problem, are they really giving a symptom, or are they giving some fragment of their own theory as to what the problem is? For example, yesterday, I had an extruder operator tell me that the fan for one of his heater zones wasn't working. I wasted a few minutes checking fuses and breakers and contactors and looking at prints to make sure that nothing else was in series with the fan motor, and found nothing wrong with the fan circuit. Then I went around to the side of the extruder and put my hand there and verified that the fan is indeed working, full blast. I asked him again, "what is the problem" and he tells me again that the fan isn't working. I led him around to the side and directed him to put his hand there, and then I asked him again "now, what is the problem?" Then and only then does he give the SYMPTOM that I was asking for. "the heat keeps going too high". No big deal, the PID heater controller needed to be tuned. This problem I also encounter on forums and it makes it very hard to assist a person when they do this, because I'm not there to call them on their B.S. It is absolutely vital that people give legitimate SYMPTOMS instead of half baked theories.

strantor, it's relativly common for members lounge threads to drift around quiet a bit. I do however agree with you 100% no one wants to be at fault and everyone wants to be the guy with the right answer. I work at a machine shop with slightly less than 100 employees and I run around town a lot to smaller shops and the mentality is pervasive to say the least.

I again couldn't agree more about the frequency of people stating what they think is wrong rather than symptoms, both in people diagnosing problems and those asking for help on forums. I think those mindsets are a little bit different than what the OP is talking about as far a shift in academia or in the culture of the young as a whole. The problems you're describing aren't a shift at all, I've found them to be ingrained in culture and mindset of the people in the job shop manufacturing industry, it's a broad deeply ingrained sense of entitlement that comes from the last embers of the glowing boom of the industrial revolution in the United States.

As far as the young still having this mentality it's a failure of education to teach basic scientific method and accountability. The 'old timers' teach, but they don't teach what's new or relevant, and only a tiny fraction of the population pick those things up on their own.

Yes, the ideas I outlined are not exactly the same the ones OP did. I listed them as "in addition" buggers to the list of buggers that come up when trying to help people from across the web. The list is probably endless though. I also agree with what's been said so far of the younger generations, despite that fact that I am a member of those. I am 26; a kid compared to some of the great minds on this forum and in industry. I have an old mindset though, old fashioned. The aspects of the world and society that I find myself complaining about are the same things that my parents and grandparents complain about. I rarely identify with other people my age.

tvtech said:

Hi Guys..

I work daily with the thickest of the thickest. Like in South Africa......Really wearing me out and all. Stupids set no boundaries......at all.

I know better than to moan though....or swear at uselessness..It's the African way after all. And I am stuck with it.

The way the ruling party has things planned, we as a country should be broke by around December 2012

I will leave it there.

Best regards guys,

tvtech

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I hear you brother. I too will rather just shut-up out of fear of being expelled for what might start a very serious political discussion.

Unfortunately for us middle aged white South Africans (b.t.w. I'm 44), we've seen both sides of the political coin. What was done in the past might be seen politically as incorrect, but this country was one of the leaders in the world then (even with all the sanctions against us). What do we have to show today? All the bright minds of this country emigrated to other countries because they could not see a future for them or their children in this country.

If it was not for the criminal court cases against my "eX", I too would have left this place. At least the rest of Africa has reached the bottom of the pit turning point. We are still going down to meet the bottom.

BUT, I am now deviating from your original thread topic. Sorry for the Hi-Jack (Oops, did it again )

That's my two cents (whatever that's worth in the rest of the world).

SPDCHK said:

That's my two cents (whatever that's worth in the rest of the world).

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Its worth something to me. I worked with a middle aged white guy from south Africa and to hear him talk about his experiences was depressing. I think it should be talked about though, so that others have perspective, and maybe other nations won't make the same mistakes. But, they will.

strantor said:

Yes, the ideas I outlined are not exactly the same the ones OP did. I listed them as "in addition" buggers to the list of buggers that come up when trying to help people from across the web. The list is probably endless though. I also agree with what's been said so far of the younger generations, despite that fact that I am a member of those. I am 26; a kid compared to some of the great minds on this forum and in industry. I have an old mindset though, old fashioned. The aspects of the world and society that I find myself complaining about are the same things that my parents and grandparents complain about. I rarely identify with other people my age.

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Hi Strantor

I wish all "youngsters" thought like you. At age 26 you are exceptional man.
You are wise beyond your years. You will make a success of anything you do. And I want to be on record that I was the first to recognize it.

Go Tiger.

@ 26 Years of age I was falling around. Had not a clue. You are focused. Good stuff.
@ 49 Years of age I am still falling around.

Now I am trying to train the untrainable...

All I have going for me is experience. You have the world.

Best regards,
tvtech

tvtech said:

Hi Strantor

I wish all "youngsters" thought like you. At age 26 you are exceptional man.
You are wise beyond your years. You will make a success of anything you do. And I want to be on record that I was the first to recognize it.

Go Tiger.

@ 26 Years of age I was falling around. Had not a clue. You are focused. Good stuff.
@ 49 Years of age I am still falling around.

Now I am trying to train the untrainable...

All I have going for me is experience. You have the world.

Best regards,
tvtech

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Well thank you sir. I appreciate the kind words.

Sometimes the failure of the student to learn is in the failure of the teachers ability to instruct. Might take a step back and reflect on your teaching method...

Just a thought.

Mikebits said:

Sometimes the failure of the student to learn is in the failure of the teachers ability to instruct. Might take a step back and reflect on your teaching method...
Just a thought.

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Yes Mike, I am afraid, you are right - and I think that one of the reasons is the following:
Slowly we are approaching the situation that not only pupils/students but also their teachers/professors belong to a generation which had in the age of five or so already a TV set in their sleeping room.
(This is only a remarkable example that stands for the social development/situation I like to describe).
At least here in Germany, on Saturday and Sunday starting at 6.00 in the morning many TV programs show cartoons and other movies dedicated especially for very young children.
To me this is a scandalous and shocking development - and this applies not to private TV channels only but also to other channels which are paid by regular fees ("öffentlich-rechtlich")
It's so easy to be entertained. And - later - in school they are told that the best way of learning is to have fun!
But nobody tells them that - sometimes - learning and understanding things is real hard work.
So - why reading a book? They have either no time or they even don't see the necessity because everything they need (better: they believe to need) is available via I-pad (or I-pod or similar stuff), PC, and TV.
And the worst thing: I am afraid there is no way out. These developments cannot be reversed.
Am I too pessimistic?
W.

In the emergency fire/rescue industry, mistakes can mot be made, nor are they tolerated, or someone gets hurt or worse. For new people, training is at the forefront of their new career, both written and practical exams, they must show they can function with competence and little or no hesitation. We end up with high caliber people, but this is not due to only employing high quality people, rather high quality instruction with proficiency written and skills exams. The pass/fail rate is a reflection of the instructor, not the student.